Kind of baptism?

[Guest]

You know thinking back on it and having read the bible, Christ didn't require anyone to believe a whole lot, or pay money or have a ton of faith. When people came to him for healing, he healed them regardless of their belief, regarless of their faith, and regardless how much money they had. THEN after he healed them, he ministered to them.

[Natt]

I know people who have been miraculously healed. I've also witness healing in my own family. But all these healings were free to the people involved. They were granted through prayer.

[Scarletprayers]

B, I don't think I'm doubting.............I'm trying to understand, I have faith, I do believe, and now I'm just trying to find out if I have, because of upbringing denied myself one of the gifts that my Father would like to bestow on me. I'm not expecting anybody to come up with the perfect answer, I just want to understand how others believe and why they believe it, if the little light goes off it will be because God has opened my eyes.

[exrockstar]

This idea that we have two differen't classes of saints is not one I ever suggested. While I do believe in two baptisms, I do not believe that those who have not received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost are less of a Christian. To me, it means that they have refused a free gift.

As far as miracles taking place today, I have attended healing services and seen people receive miraculous healing. I know of one case personally where a woman was told by a doctor she had a problem with recurring infections that would eventually lead to her having to go on dialisis. After being called to the front by a minister, and being prayed over, the infections, which had continued to recur, never came back. This is a family member, so I know it was not faked. I have also heard testimonies of missionaries having raised the dead. Just because you haven't witnessed such things doesn't mean they don't happen.

Been to these so called healing services. the preacher hit me on the chest supposedly healing my heart damage. still have heart damage and pain. told him about it a month later, he said it was because i didn't believe hard enough and then he said maybe i didn't give enough money i gave for the healing, ooops err i mean tithe or hears a good one, it wasn't Gods will. What a load! Been to more than one too. they all are the same. Charlatains, con men and liars.

See this kind of scam all the time especially on sunday morning when the ole rev. Earnest angley comes on!

Sorry but i don't believe that there is such a thing as this anymore. It's funny. All of the preachers that swear up and down that if you don't get healed that you must not have enough faith or haven't prayed hard enough or don't believe enough. You know thinking back on it and having read the bible, Christ didn't require anyone to believe a whole lot, or pay money or have a ton of faith. When people came to him for healing, he healed them regardless of their belief, regarless of their faith, and regardless how much money they had. THEN after he healed them, he ministered to them.

you are a strong person sir. unfortunately there are people out there that would take the claim of that preacher and give more or whatever.

it's very sad.

by the way: notice how all these people with special powers never show up in places like hospital emergency rooms or debates on ABC.

[Openly Curious]

'Eliyahuw'

You know thinking back on it and having read the bible, Christ didn't require anyone to believe a whole lot, or pay money or have a ton of faith. When people came to him for healing, he healed them regardless of their belief, regarless of their faith, and regardless how much money they had. THEN after he healed them, he ministered to them.

Jesus while he walked with His disciples was constantly throughout the gospel accounts chiding them for their lack of faith. We are told in scripture in the book of Jude to build up ourselves on our most holy faith praying in the Holy Ghost. We are told that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word as the word builds up our faith in God. I am not a faith basher as sometimes I think things comes through struggles and trials we go through and not everything comes instantaneously. But God does and still can heal today just like He did when He walked this earth but He is looking for our faith to touch Him. Just as in the story of the Canaanite women in

Matthew 15:21-28--"Then Jesus went thence and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And behold a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts and cried unto him saying Have mercy on me O Lord thou Son of David my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word And his disciples came and besought him saying Send her away for she crieth after us. But He answered and said I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him saying, Lord, help me But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth Lord yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt.And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

This woman was persistant she didn't give up on seeking the help of Jesus on behalf of her daughter who was grievously vexed with a devil. Then she hollers out to Jesus and Jesus ignores her not saying a word that would have caused many to stop right there then the disciples came to Jesus trying to persuade Him to send the woman away because she was crying after them still.

But then after not answering the women Jesus finally does and tells her that He wasn't but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel meaning the Jewish people. As this woman was a Canaanite and not a Jew then the woman comes even knowing she is an outcast and she begins to worship Him and then she asks Lord, help me. So now she has been ignored told that He was sent but to the Jews the disciples wanted to send her away for crying after them and Now another blow as Jesus says It's not meet for me to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs. As Jesus now has called her a dog on top of everything now but the woman doesn't go away still as her desperate faith cries out and says of a truth yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from your table Lord and her faith touches His at that moment and Jesus says to her O woman great is thy faith be it unto you even as thou wilt and it was within that very same hour her daughter was made whole.

Jesus said to seek and we shall find knock and the door shall be open many give up as this woman could have turn away when Jesus wouldn't anwer her the first time she hollered out turn away after Jesus told her the children's bread wasn't for the dogs and he wasn't sent to her. At what point would you have gone away in the story or would you have been one to stay until you got your request answered.

I know I have been weak in my faith many times but I still have to seek His righteousness and those things I need will be added to me for that is a promise. It is true Jesus said if we had faith as a grain of mustard seed but our faith must grow and increase in Him and not stay the same. What ever we get from God no matter what it is It will be by faith we recieve it.

So don't give up seeking your healing because of bad characters misrepresenting the faith that is taught us in the word.

OC

[Floatingaxe]

Right on, OC. It is faith that will move mountains when we speak to them...even mustard seed faith.

[hupo]

As for the heated arguments I hear about.....

Didn't God tell us there were two commandments to be fulfilled? (Matt 22)

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself. "

Any argument that doesn't include these two verses, cannot be a God based argument

Hi Hupo

I agree with you regarding Matt 22

I left one church because of the arguments against the Holy Spirit because they couldn't show how it was biblical. I have not that viewpoint to that extreme anymore.

1 Cor 13: 8-10

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

also can be seen as the time Jesus comes back which is what I understand it be. In all things we should be glorifying Jesus. It is a shame that this issue is dividing Christians.

Hi Natt,

What you just quoted brings to mind a verse from....lets see........

Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Sounds to me very much like the time Yeshua come back and in that day there will be no more need for interpretation of people talking in tongues.

Prophesy won't be needed any more. Knowledge passing away is somewhat obscure.... any idea?

Yes it is a shame that this issue divides the body of Yeshua.

I would go further and say this is very clearly satan trying to cause a breach in God's army of saints

I pray we all see this in Worthy and refrain from letting satan get his way

disagreements are just disagreements. Lets not let satan use them !!

Praise the Lord

[hupo]

This idea that we have two differen't classes of saints is not one I ever suggested. While I do believe in two baptisms, I do not believe that those who have not received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost are less of a Christian. To me, it means that they have refused a free gift.

As far as miracles taking place today, I have attended healing services and seen people receive miraculous healing. I know of one case personally where a woman was told by a doctor she had a problem with recurring infections that would eventually lead to her having to go on dialisis. After being called to the front by a minister, and being prayed over, the infections, which had continued to recur, never came back. This is a family member, so I know it was not faked. I have also heard testimonies of missionaries having raised the dead. Just because you haven't witnessed such things doesn't mean they don't happen.

I wasn't pointing the finger to say "YOU" and I hope you know that. Just typing what I feel, as we all are. I've read these discussion how many times here??? and with a much more open heart and mind than when I first started here, when I didn't believe in it at all, period. Thats what I'm trying to do now, since this thread seems to be actually discussing it calmly and with patience and love, I'll stay here and maybe this time get it resolved. But if the mud slinging starts, I'm outta here

Now back to topic, I know you would never say that, neither would some of the others who's opinions I have come to respect, but that doesn't change (in my mind anyway) that some being given this 2nd baptism and others not, even those honest loving believers does make a class distinction.

I've seen miracles also, through prayer and just the belief of people involved, I'm not denying that, I also KNOW those things happen. B, you know I get nervous doing this, so bare with me, I was brought up to believe that these things were given to the Apostles only, and those directly touched by them, thats why I brought up the, someone raising the dead, and the blind and lame, which leads directly to the others gifts. I hate typing, my mind works faster than my fingers and I loose my train of thought and get things twisted, plus I always worry I might hurt somebody's feelings or make them mad when I don't mean to, so I'm sorry if this sounds like the lamest excuse for a question/answer you have ever read.

Hi Silentprayer

Please don't worry too much. I think you are doing a fine job conveying your view. I know so little of this subject, I try and read everything people say here and yes, it is very confusing. One thing I do see: The terrible mud slinging session I was warned of is not happening here and I pray it keeps that way.

While trying to make heads and tails of this discussion, I want to encourage you in your posts. It is valuable for the likes of me, at least

Thank you for your input and courage in doing so

Blessings

[hupo]

Hupo, I am someone that believes the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is real and does apply to the church today. You can go back and read the arguments that were carried on over this issue here at Worthy and get numerous responses. Here is a link to a good full-gospel church in Charlotte N.C. where you can get information on the subject. They have pamphlets available, and the Pastor makes many of his sermons available to listen to. He may even have some still up dealing with this subject.

http://www.pawcreek.org

Thanks Butero

I will check out that site. I like to hear all sides of any issue.

Blessings

[hupo]

Hi hupo:

I invite you to go to the link I have provided as it hits on this subject to learn more. The following was written by a born again Christian involved in the charismatic/tongues movement in Toronto, Canada which has subsequently spread to America, and other places. He gives many warnings as God opened up his eyes through His Word.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/cultsandcharismatic.html

The Vineyard, the Charismatic Church, and the Cults

Why I Write

Long before becoming a born-again Christian in the fall of 2000, I spent 7 years in a cult calling itself the Church of the Living Word, also known as