23 minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese

[forrestkc]

How do you know these people did not have a genuine spiritual encounter or experience?

How do you know that disease is not caused by spiritual deficiencies rather than bacteria and viruses?

I personally know a woman who was healed from fibromyalgia after she forgave someone whom she had been holding major unforgiveness towards.

There is a strong link between the spirit, the soul and the body, and often times one can affect the other. I am not saying all sicknesses have a spiritual cause. What I am saying is that sometimes they do.

And Fibromyalgia is a made up disease. It simply something people throw out there, usually hypochondriacs, when they can't get diagnosed with anything else. It's like "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome", you ever known anyone poor get Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? Probably not, because no matter how tired you are, if you need the money, you get up and go to work anyway.

Your friend probably had a mental issue that was manifesting itself in physical ways. This is common. She then dealt with the causes of the mental issue, sounds like a lot of anger on her part, and then the physical manifestations of the mental issue were alleviated.

[undone]

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

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Why would God all the sudden decide that people will listen to this guy? It seems Jesus has already addressed this issue.

I've often wondered, actually hoped, NDE's could be verified and used as evidence of supernatural experiences. But it seems they go against scripture.

[nebula]

And Fibromyalgia is a made up disease. It simply something people throw out there, usually hypochondriacs, when they can't get diagnosed with anything else. It's like "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome", you ever known anyone poor get Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? Probably not, because no matter how tired you are, if you need the money, you get up and go to work anyway.

Your friend probably had a mental issue that was manifesting itself in physical ways. This is common. She then dealt with the causes of the mental issue, sounds like a lot of anger on her part, and then the physical manifestations of the mental issue were alleviated.

OK, now I see your level of skepticism. Fibromyalgia is an autoimmune disease. Muscle tissue is destroyed. Sufferers are in pain.

I myself have rheumatoid arthritis. Before I was able to be on medication for it, I constantly felt as tired and weary as I did when suffering the flu. I also felt muscle pain that felt like my muscles were injured when I had done nothing to injure them. So I know first hand that such symptoms are real. And yes, they went away after I was put on medication.

Therefore, I have every reason to believe that fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome are real.

What is your evidence that they are not?

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, and how many of the contemporaries of the original apostles might have seen them as having lost their minds over the visions they experienced from God?

If Paul were writing today for the first time about his vision of heaven instead of 2,000 years ago, by your standard Paul was having a psychotic episode. By what standard could NOT give a similar vision today? What rules out the possbility that some of what we call "mental illness" might actually be demonic oppression? Is there something about humanity today that makes us impervious to such oppression?

I am not saying that it is impossible, I am saying that it is highly unlikely. Would you not agree that it is highly unlikely?

You really don't get the point... If you were a contemporary of Paul, you would have seen him as mentally ill, not realizing that his vision is real. You would have relegated a move of God to nothing more than a man's delusion.

Let me ask you this... WHY is it highly unlikely? What conditions exist that make it so.

[ayin jade]

I have a question....

Looking over his book, he says that he was terrorized by demons in hell. He says they run your life down there.

Arent demons punished too? Why would they have the power to terrorize or to run your life down there? He claims he can back his book with scripture.

Does anyone know the scriptural reference for this? Is there even any scriptural support for this claim? If not, then can his vision/ experience be trusted?

[forrestkc]

Something just occured to me about this man's experience. In the excerpts from the book, he states that two demons were waiting for him, and that they were assigned to him and knew he was coming.

Ok, if God wanted him to experience 23 minutes of hell so he could tell others about his horrible experience, then why did the devil not just wise up and make his stay pleasant? The Devil is not stupid, it seems to me that he would have put him in a suite, surrounded him by wealth and good looking women, and wined and dined him the whole 23 minutes that way when he got back, he would be telling everyone that hell is actually not bad at all. Honestly, the devil is not stupid, so why would he make hell so bad for this guy just so this guy would get out and tell everyone how bad it really is?

[undone]

I have a question....

Looking over his book, he says that he was terrorized by demons in hell. He says they run your life down there.

Arent demons punished too? Why would they have the power to terrorize or to run your life down there? He claims he can back his book with scripture.

Does anyone know the scriptural reference for this? Is there even any scriptural support for this claim? If not, then can his vision/ experience be trusted?

Ayin,

I just posted a scripture that goes AGAINST it. Luke 16:19-31

[nebula]

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

--------------------------------

Why would God all the sudden decide that people will listen to this guy? It seems Jesus has already addressed this issue.

Why do we give our testimonies period, if the Law and the Prophets are enough?

OK, let's think about this. Jesus was speaking to Jews who had faith in the Law and the Prophets, not the Gentiles who had no belief of any kind in YHWH.

[undone]

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

--------------------------------

Why would God all the sudden decide that people will listen to this guy? It seems Jesus has already addressed this issue.

Why do we give our testimonies period, if the Law and the Prophets are enough?

OK, let's think about this. Jesus was speaking to Jews who had faith in the Law and the Prophets, not the Gentiles who had no belief of any kind in YHWH.

Giving our testimonies of how we came to know Christ is one thing. Saying you died, went to Hell and came back with the mission of telling others about it to persuade them into belief seems to go against what Jesus is saying here.

On the other hand, didn't Mike say this was one of the reasons he chose to ask Christ into his life? Didn't Paul say that there are some who preach Christ for financial gain but at least they preach Christ. Mike was basically convicted of the reality of his sin and caused to place salvation as an utmost priority. I guess you can't argue with the results.

I dunno...

[7thseal]

Looking over his book, he says that he was terrorized by demons in hell. He says they run your life down there.

Arent demons punished too? Why would they have the power to terrorize or to run your life down there? He claims he can back his book with scripture.

Does anyone know the scriptural reference for this? Is there even any scriptural support for this claim? If not, then can his vision/ experience be trusted?

Scripture shares that those in hell will be released for judgment before God and then all who are lost (fallen angels and man) are thrown into a lake of fire. Even death and hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire in the end. Punishment will be dealt according to scripture and it will be for eternity.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Matthew Jesus confronted two that were demonic possessed and the demons spoke these words.

Matthew8: 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Their time is coming and they know it.

Edited July 9, 2007 by 7thseal