In the beginning........

[EricH]

While going over the Old Testament I came across the first verse (yet again) and was stopped dead in my tracks by a question.....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

In the beginning of what?

. . . .. . .. .. ... . .. . . .

Let me dissect this:-

God was, is and always will be.

In the beginning God created ...........

In the beginning of what?

The beginning of His creation? ok.........

God created something finite, something with a beginning.

Now there is something in the universe that is finite

Is this creation, God Himself?

No, God is the Creator.

So there are two "things" in the universe now:

God, the Creator, who is infinite and timeless

and the creation, that is finite.

If there are two things then God is "only" one of the two.

If there are two things, it means God is not everything...or , not Omnipresent.

We know that is not so. We know that God is omnipresent which brings us to the logical fact that God, the Creator, AND His creation, are one and the same....

God created Man. Are Man and God one and the same?

If God and Man are one and the same, it means "I" am just an illusion. I don't really exist as a separate entity.

The difference between a believer in God and an atheist is the first believes God exists while the 2nd believes Man exists....

Being a believer, my question would be:

"Am I? and if so, WHO am I?"

(an amusing answer I got was "Who is asking?")

I must emphesize once again that anything said here has no effect whatsoever on The Truth

So that we can now relax, not be afraid of ruining God's plans, and just have fun

Anyone?

Blessings in Yeshua

The hebrew grammar can be of some help in deciphering this.

[OopsMartin]

Scripture shows that God is eternal, no beginning, no end, and that time is eternal, and also that the Earth had a beginning, that is when God started to creat it, and the Earth will continue on into eternity past. Scripture also shows that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Who can show which "In the beginning," is a different time factor?

"In the beginning was the Word," (John 1;1) and "In the beginning God created." (Gen. 1:1). Why would one have a beginning and the other not. Which "in the beginning" has a beginning, and which has an endless eternity past?

The Word was with God. And all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)? Can we figure this out by ourselves?

Time is not eternal. Eternity is timeless as we know time.

3 Then God said,

[hupo]

Scripture shows that God is eternal, no beginning, no end, and that time is eternal, and also that the Earth had a beginning, that is when God started to creat it, and the Earth will continue on into eternity past. Scripture also shows that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Who can show which "In the beginning," is a different time factor?

"In the beginning was the Word," (John 1;1) and "In the beginning God created." (Gen. 1:1). Why would one have a beginning and the other not. Which "in the beginning" has a beginning, and which has an endless eternity past?

The Word was with God. And all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)? Can we figure this out by ourselves?

No, of course we can't figure this out by ourselves,

but we can try

"Trying" is what life is about

It isn't THE TRUTH, it's the way to it

... and we know WHO the way is

Blessings in Yeshua

[theprocessofbelief]

i would like to respond to what Hazard said. although the Bible does say that the earth was created in 6 days and is only 6000 years old, this is clearly not entirely acurate. there are two points to back this up, for a start scientific evidence proves that the man has been active in the world for much more than 6000 years. for a start the Egyptians had created a very successful civilisation for a good while by this point, not to mention all that happened before this, for example the dinosaurs. if the earth was only 6000 years old why have we found evidence of dinosaurs, and geological evidence that the earths age is to be measured in millions rather than thousands of years? why would God plant evidence to suggest this if it were not true? to decieve us? i do not believe my God is a deceitful God. he wants the whole world to know he exists, to trust in him, and so why would he convince the world of one thing when it is not true?

surely the true explanation is that man at the time had no understanding of the world and used this story to explain the world around them. if we are to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old and took six days to create, do you also believe there are a finite number of places in heaven as the bible suggests, and that this quota has already been filled? do you believe Abraham was over 900 years old? no, these are numbers that either represent large periods of time of which humans were unsure of and created a large sounding number in its place. in the case of Abraham and Noah, their ages refer to obviously a different system of numbers that has been confused in calculation.

to believe that the world is only 6000 years old is madness, God would not deceive us, and man could surely not know the extent of the earths age at the time the bible is written. how could they understand the word of God when they had so little understanding of the world. it is foolish not to update this knowledge, when we have the power to find more, to then rely on evidence that is thousands of years old and has been translated many, many times. therefore the sentence in the "beginning" is merely a way to explain the world when man had so little knowledge of the world around him. it was not the beginning of God, merely the beginning of God's understanding.

TPB

[Anne]

In the begining of what you see and don't see.... God was

This is a very striking answer and strangely sconzy to me it makes perfect sense.

[nebula]

God is light. Kind of stands to reason with me that time is standing still in the realm of God. If it's standing still, it's there, but you'd never know it b/c it's not moving.

Good point!

In the "end", I think it comes down to the fact that God is smarter and bigger than us and we can't figure Him out no matter how deep we think or how hard we try.

Can somebody give me an "Amen!" on that one?

[hupo]

In the "end", I think it comes down to the fact that God is smarter and bigger than us and we can't figure Him out no matter how deep we think or how hard we try.

Can somebody give me an "Amen!" on that one?

Sure thing Nebula. AMEN to that

And now that we know, we can enjoy the discussion, knowing we won't "hurt" God's plans

This is freedom!!!!

Blessings

[hupo]

I don't know all the science about it, but I know that time gets slower as one approaches the speed of light. The theory is that time will stand still when the speed of light is actually attained.

God is light. Kind of stands to reason with me that time is standing still in the realm of God. If it's standing still, it's there, but you'd never know it b/c it's not moving.

"The beginning", however, implies a movement of time. God created the heavens and the earth, but not the sun "in the beginning". The movement had to come from Him, since it couldn't have come from the sun, and there had to be movement else there could be no time, and hence no beginning.

Never thought of this angle. I love it, Isaiah

You know, it always amazes me how we can grasp bits of understanding, using human logic, about an entity that is so beyond logic.

God is light..... I love it!!

You slay me, Hupo. I love reading your posts. Don't agree with you a lot of times, but I do enjoy reading what's in your mind. What you let show, anyway. I think if I could read ALL that's in your mind, I'd get real dizzy !

Join the fun Isaiah. It's a merry go round and yes, I do get dizzy at times. Yet once we know we don't know everything, as Nebula mentioned, we are free to play. Worthy is a great playground as long as we know the limits of our minds.

In the "end", I think it comes down to the fact that God is smarter and bigger than us and we can't figure Him out no matter how deep we think or how hard we try.

Amen to that! in total agreement with Nebula

God is NOT everything! I can't hug God by hugging a tree. God is, however, in control of whether said tree is planted in Arizona or India (omnipotence). He is there (omnipresent) with that tree in draught or plenty. And He knows (omniscience) just when that tree is going to be cut down, and whether it will be for firewood or to build a house. He can have all these powers without actually being a tree! I'd check out this "somehow" that tells you that God is everything.

I differ with you here. To my mind you ARE hugging God when you hug a tree. The fact that you acknowledge God's creation is a step on the road to seeing God as everything, everywhere, all the time

Blessings

[hupo]

i would like to respond to what Hazard said. although the Bible does say that the earth was created in 6 days and is only 6000 years old, this is clearly not entirely acurate. there are two points to back this up, for a start scientific evidence proves that the man has been active in the world for much more than 6000 years. for a start the Egyptians had created a very successful civilisation for a good while by this point, not to mention all that happened before this, for example the dinosaurs. if the earth was only 6000 years old why have we found evidence of dinosaurs, and geological evidence that the earths age is to be measured in millions rather than thousands of years? why would God plant evidence to suggest this if it were not true? to decieve us? i do not believe my God is a deceitful God. he wants the whole world to know he exists, to trust in him, and so why would he convince the world of one thing when it is not true?

surely the true explanation is that man at the time had no understanding of the world and used this story to explain the world around them. if we are to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old and took six days to create, do you also believe there are a finite number of places in heaven as the bible suggests, and that this quota has already been filled? do you believe Abraham was over 900 years old? no, these are numbers that either represent large periods of time of which humans were unsure of and created a large sounding number in its place. in the case of Abraham and Noah, their ages refer to obviously a different system of numbers that has been confused in calculation.

to believe that the world is only 6000 years old is madness, God would not deceive us, and man could surely not know the extent of the earths age at the time the bible is written. how could they understand the word of God when they had so little understanding of the world. it is foolish not to update this knowledge, when we have the power to find more, to then rely on evidence that is thousands of years old and has been translated many, many times. therefore the sentence in the "beginning" is merely a way to explain the world when man had so little knowledge of the world around him. it was not the beginning of God, merely the beginning of God's understanding.

TPB

You know TPB, I have this statement I use..... "Facts are a matter of opinion"

It has served me well for many years now and what stands behind it is how to understand what a fact is.

Science builds everything on speculations or theories, then it proves the theory and until further notice this proof is a fact science builds on.

We know about historical facts such as the world being flat, everything revolving around earth that is the center of the univers and such other facts.

How long do facts stay facts? Just a matter of time, untill someone comes up with proof of something else.

For me the bottom line is "Facts are a matter of opinion" and therefore, any scientific arguments about the age of the earth, for instance, are actually a matter of opinion.

Opinions are legal even if they are not exactly the truth and so I can live with what seems to be hard-scientific-evidence.

In other words.... martial arts tell you how to avoid being hurt by rolling with the punches or side stepping them.

I'm side stepping science, in this case

Blessings

[HAZARD]

Scripture shows that God is eternal, no beginning, no end, and that time is eternal, and also that the Earth had a beginning, that is when God started to creat it, and the Earth will continue on into eternity past. Scripture also shows that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Who can show which "In the beginning," is a different time factor?

"In the beginning was the Word," (John 1;1) and "In the beginning God created." (Gen. 1:1). Why would one have a beginning and the other not. Which "in the beginning" has a beginning, and which has an endless eternity past?

The Word was with God. And all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)? Can we figure this out by ourselves?

Time is not eternal. Eternity is timeless as we know time.

3 Then God said,