The formation of the bible?

[mikerunk]

All right I have sort of intresting little problem. I tried to bring my friend to christ but the problem is...well many things, most of the issues he has I can eliminate but there is one thing I can't cause im not even sure how to answer. While were supposed to have faith in christ and to trust in the bible in leading people to christ however we also must have the answers that non christan bring up. It's sort of like being a lawyer, a lawyer never ask a question he doesn't all ready know the answer to. Same thing (well sort of) if I can't answer a question then it hurts my ability to lead people to christ, and more importantly it makes me look like fool, I should at least know the answers (with in reason).

Which leads me to my problem. See my friend doesn't believe in the bible, thinks it was made up by man. He told me that the bible has been rewriten so many times and more to the point that it has been rewriten to further Certain peoples agendas, people like King James. He says that we call christ Jesus yet christ was Jewish and there is no J in Jewish language, so in short were calling the lord by a name that isn't even his. This is what he has thrown in my face, problem is I have no idea how to answer that.

I know that Religious Scholars and priest and what not came together and decided what Books would go in to the formation of what we call the bible. Yet beyond that I have no idea about were they got these books, I though it was from dead sea scrolls, how do I show that the bible hasn't been rewriten that the bible is same text as they were created by the authors. How do I explain Jesus name being Jesus when there is no J in the Hebrew languge. Now this is more then just me going to relate this back to my friend, but I to would like the answers to these questions, that way if it ever comes up I can explain it and show the person what im talking about.

Are there any good books that go in to this subject that I could pick up, especially books that have cross references to other books that are more historical and less Religious in nature. Any way and help you guys can give would be great.

[Hypathia]

All right I have sort of intresting little problem. I tried to bring my friend to christ but the problem is...well many things, most of the issues he has I can eliminate but there is one thing I can't cause im not even sure how to answer. While were supposed to have faith in christ and to trust in the bible in leading people to christ however we also must have the answers that non christan bring up. It's sort of like being a lawyer, a lawyer never ask a question he doesn't all ready know the answer to. Same thing (well sort of) if I can't answer a question then it hurts my ability to lead people to christ, and more importantly it makes me look like fool, I should at least know the answers (with in reason).

Which leads me to my problem. See my friend doesn't believe in the bible, thinks it was made up by man. He told me that the bible has been rewriten so many times and more to the point that it has been rewriten to further Certain peoples agendas, people like King James. He says that we call christ Jesus yet christ was Jewish and there is no J in Jewish language, so in short were calling the lord by a name that isn't even his. This is what he has thrown in my face, problem is I have no idea how to answer that.

I know that Religious Scholars and priest and what not came together and decided what Books would go in to the formation of what we call the bible. Yet beyond that I have no idea about were they got these books, I though it was from dead sea scrolls, how do I show that the bible hasn't been rewriten that the bible is same text as they were created by the authors. How do I explain Jesus name being Jesus when there is no J in the Hebrew languge. Now this is more then just me going to relate this back to my friend, but I to would like the answers to these questions, that way if it ever comes up I can explain it and show the person what im talking about.

Are there any good books that go in to this subject that I could pick up, especially books that have cross references to other books that are more historical and less Religious in nature. Any way and help you guys can give would be great.

Don't use the dead sea scroll approach because those weren't even found until 1945. Historically speaking, the oldest "peice" of the bible is about an inch wide fragment from the gospel of John dated around 125 A.D. I hate to tell you this but outside of the bible there isn't any other historical eyewitness evidence for Jesus (that I've been able to locate thus far). There are independent accounts of "Christians" from the first century but even those are not mentioned until several decades after Christ's resurrection and those accounts are from people who were born after 33 A.D. Whatever you do don't rely on the Josephus (b 37 A.D.) paragraph about Christ because that didn't show up until the 4th century and it's widely regarded as a fraud so that would only hurt your position. I don't know what to tell you other than what I've just told you so that you don't make matters worse and to save you from getting "egg on your face" (it's happened to me already on this subject).

Perhaps others reading this will have come across some information that I haven't been able to find so far. I'd sure love to have it too because this can become a very "sticky" thing when you're talking to a non-christian.

[MrLuke]

Ok, I'll have a bash at this. I'm studying a degree in Theology.. so lets see what I can remember of Church history and the like from the last two years!

Which leads me to my problem. See my friend doesn't believe in the bible, thinks it was made up by man. He told me that the bible has been rewriten so many times and more to the point that it has been rewriten to further Certain peoples agendas, people like King James. He says that we call christ Jesus yet christ was Jewish and there is no J in Jewish language, so in short were calling the lord by a name that isn't even his. This is what he has thrown in my face, problem is I have no idea how to answer that.

OK this one isn't so much of a challenge when you understand language. Yes it's true that there is no "J" - neither is there in Ancient Greek (and still in quite a few languages today) in which the New Testament is written. In the Greek texts, Jesus is literally "Yēsous" if transliterated or Ιησους in Greek. The first letter is just translated as "J" in English. (I studied Greek too.)

I know that Religious Scholars and priest and what not came together and decided what Books would go in to the formation of what we call the bible. Yet beyond that I have no idea about were they got these books, I though it was from dead sea scrolls, how do I show that the bible hasn't been rewriten that the bible is same text as they were created by the authors.

The Catholic Church Synods of Hippo, 393 A.D decided on the formation of the canon of Scripture as we have it today. Manuscripts have survived through time, and despite what the post by Hypathia says, the Dead Sea Scrolls have played a vital role in confirming to us today that the texts we have today in our Bibles are the very same as they were always written, save for maybe slight punctuation differences (Hebrew and Greek didn't have punctuation as we understand it today until a much later date). They may only have been discovered in 1945 but that is besides the point; it's what the scrolls show that is important. They predate nearly all our Biblical manuscripts - the book of Isaiah for example was found intact and predating the current copy at the time by 100 years! All this just confirmed the accuracy of the Bible and how well preserved the text has been through the ages.

Also, as a bit of info on the side: there are more manuscripts and scrolls etc of Biblical texts (over 500) than there are about some of the greatest historical figures in history! There's less recorded evidence in existance for some Roman leaders than there is for Jesus.

And yet, historians will have no quarms that they existed as real people, if nothing else.

Hope this helps somewhat.

[chicagoburbite]

"Jesus" is what we call him. Jews call him "Yeshua".

Many many names are like that. My name is Jennifer, but in spanish it's Geniveva.

Sounds like you have a GREAT reason to begin studying the bible in depth so that you can share you faith I'm sure there are some great resources on line to help you with evangelism.

Jennifer

All right I have sort of intresting little problem. I tried to bring my friend to christ but the problem is...well many things, most of the issues he has I can eliminate but there is one thing I can't cause im not even sure how to answer. While were supposed to have faith in christ and to trust in the bible in leading people to christ however we also must have the answers that non christan bring up. It's sort of like being a lawyer, a lawyer never ask a question he doesn't all ready know the answer to. Same thing (well sort of) if I can't answer a question then it hurts my ability to lead people to christ, and more importantly it makes me look like fool, I should at least know the answers (with in reason).

Which leads me to my problem. See my friend doesn't believe in the bible, thinks it was made up by man. He told me that the bible has been rewriten so many times and more to the point that it has been rewriten to further Certain peoples agendas, people like King James. He says that we call christ Jesus yet christ was Jewish and there is no J in Jewish language, so in short were calling the lord by a name that isn't even his. This is what he has thrown in my face, problem is I have no idea how to answer that.

I know that Religious Scholars and priest and what not came together and decided what Books would go in to the formation of what we call the bible. Yet beyond that I have no idea about were they got these books, I though it was from dead sea scrolls, how do I show that the bible hasn't been rewriten that the bible is same text as they were created by the authors. How do I explain Jesus name being Jesus when there is no J in the Hebrew languge. Now this is more then just me going to relate this back to my friend, but I to would like the answers to these questions, that way if it ever comes up I can explain it and show the person what im talking about.

Are there any good books that go in to this subject that I could pick up, especially books that have cross references to other books that are more historical and less Religious in nature. Any way and help you guys can give would be great.

[Leonard]

Good grief! What a lot of misinformation there is out there! First of all there are tons of independent evidences for the resurrection of Jesus. In fact there are MORE 1st hand, 2nd hand, and 3rd hand reports of the Resurrection, than for ANY other event of the ancient world!

Your friend might reject Christ's resurrection, but if he does, then to intellectually honest he must also reject EVERYTHING we know of the world prior to about A.D. 600.

The oldest piece of the Bible we know of appears to be the Samaritan Pentateuch, the original of which seems to be from about 1000 BC! Recently a copy of the Gospel of Matthew (in two parts) was found at the Sorbonne, and at the Toledo. It appears to be from about A.D. 62 to 65, and some scholars think it may even be the original text!

As far as "the Bible being rewritten many times" this claim is so absurd as to hardly deserve an answer. The fact is that TENS OF THOUSANDS of different scrolls of the individual Books of the Bible existed ALL OVER THE KNOWN WORLD, and many targums and codexes of them translated into other tongues. In orther to 'rewrite' the Bible, you would have to be superhuman! You would have to sneak into every single church, synagogue, library, and private collection all over the whole known world, from India to Spain, From Great Britain to Southern Ethiopia, and alter EACH AND EVERY TEXT! Come now, this is surely an argument of desperation not consideration.

Yes, your friend is truly DESPERATE TO REJECT CHRIST! He cannot stand the moral claims Christ makes on his life, and he will grasp at straws to be the lord of his own life, because he loves his pride, his arrogance, and his stubbornness. Men do not ever reject Christ on a rational basis, but on a moral basis.

[EricH]

Here is a good book on the subject

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...mp;item_code=WW

I edited this. I linked to the wrong book the first time. The one by FF Bruce is the good one

[forrestkc]

Good grief! What a lot of misinformation there is out there! First of all there are tons of independent evidences for the resurrection of Jesus. In fact there are MORE 1st hand, 2nd hand, and 3rd hand reports of the Resurrection, than for ANY other event of the ancient world!

Your friend might reject Christ's resurrection, but if he does, then to intellectually honest he must also reject EVERYTHING we know of the world prior to about A.D. 600.

The oldest piece of the Bible we know of appears to be the Samaritan Pentateuch, the original of which seems to be from about 1000 BC!

Actually, its a pretty broad range. The Pentateuch was recorded much after the fact between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.

Recently a copy of the Gospel of Matthew (in two parts) was found at the Sorbonne, and at the Toledo. It appears to be from about A.D. 62 to 65, and some scholars think it may even be the original text!

That would be quite a stretch. It may be one of the first copies, but the chance of it being the original is very remote.

[EricH]

[

Actually, its a pretty broad range. The Pentateuch was recorded much after the fact between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.

How do you define "after the fact"? Most of the OT proports to have occured in the 6000 years before Christ?

[forrestkc]

[

Actually, its a pretty broad range. The Pentateuch was recorded much after the fact between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.

How do you define "after the fact"? Most of the OT proports to have occured in the 6000 years before Christ?

I am saying that the accounts of creation, Abraham, Noah, and Moses and the Jewish Exodus were handed down largely in a tribal generational fashion until being actually recorded between the 10th and 5th centuries BC. This is in sharp contrast with the accounts of the New Testament, and for that matter the Apocrypha.

[EricH]

[

Actually, its a pretty broad range. The Pentateuch was recorded much after the fact between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.

How do you define "after the fact"? Most of the OT proports to have occured in the 6000 years before Christ?

I am saying that the accounts of creation, Abraham, Noah, and Moses and the Jewish Exodus were handed down largely in a tribal generational fashion until being actually recorded between the 10th and 5th centuries BC. This is in sharp contrast with the accounts of the New Testament, and for that matter the Apocrypha.

Actually Moses wrote the pentateuch.