Women pastors

[OopsMartin]

Mohler was being charitable in his statement. But how terrible that the Bible actually would disqualify someone. What could God have been thinking to disqualify women as pastors? Of course, we all know that some claim to know better than God and began ordaining women regardless of what God thinks.

Besides knowing what the Bible says about women pastors Mohler also resides in the same city that headquarters the Presbyterian USA denomination that began ordaining women awhile back. He knows that now they are led by women who believe in the goddess Sophia and other gnostics. He knows they will soon be ordaining homosexuals because of being led by women.

What could God have been thinking to prohibit women in authority and the pastorate?? How very unfair of him!

sw

Aaaah do you propose another spiritual principal that anything done authoritatively by women whether speaking truth OR speaking untruths will ALL lead down the same path of depravity. IOW women are the seat of Satan.

You do know of course that there are far far more incidences of men leading whole congregations down paths of depravity.

[irishcowboy]

Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word.

~ Regards, PA

actually, if that were true, there would be more "homosexuals" trying to pastor.....

there are several (denominations as some would say) that do ordain women and have not even remotely concidered those that are living in sin ( homosexuals for instance ) The Assemblies is one that has had women working in the ministry for a very long time, and yet, the women have to stand to the heavy standard of living an upright and blameless life, as their male counterparts do....

a person livng in sin is not living an upright nor a blameless life.....

a person can be innocent and not be blameless.... there is a differance....

blameless means there is no way anyone can point fingers... a person that is innocent can do things to attract undue, unwarrented attention and bad publicity.... ( such as going to a bar every day after work and not drinking anything but soda, the appearance is not blameless.... )

anyways, the 2 year thing is not correct....

mike

[Rumple]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be.

[HAZARD]

Being a teacher does not make one in authority over the one being taught.

If the preacher/teacher is female, and she is married, she will love and respect and obey her husband as he will her. He will love, guide, protect and praise her name and thank God for her for ever more! She may know more than her husband, as my wife or anothers may know more than we do, but she will not, and does not userp her husbands authority over her or their houshold. Another example;

If, lets say I am a divisional manager of a large corperation, As manager, know everything about the company business, and I am sent to the company organized yearly convention to be updated on the latest stratergy plan, and the speaker is a woman? sent by the corporate director of the said company, to teach me and others on what was required. As my teacher in this matter, would that give her authority over me a divisional manager?? No! All she knows is the latest stragerty of the company, and she is to pass that information on. And neither would she want authority over me and take on all my responsobilities. All she would be doing is tell me, preach to me, teach me and others of what is required and expected of me by the BOSS!

Put God in the bosses position, God sends who He will, and many are women, as Scripture shows in another thread on this board, which some men cannot come to grips with, to teach, preach, as is recorded in Scripture, DOES NOT MAKE THEM IN ANY WAY, IN AUTHORITY OVER MEN! God does not say they are in authority does He? GOD, through the apostles say women are not to be in authority, and neither do they want to be. If they can, and do teach men of the things of God, what is wrong with that, especially if God empowers them to do this?

Its not much of a stretch to say teaching implies authority and teaching God's Word certainly acknowledges real authority. I just don't understand the pragmatic reasoning in this thread. Sure there are lots of women who are exercising authority within the church by teaching and they are not going away but that does not make what they are doing biblical either. There is no way you can divorce teaching from authority.

sw

Hi "Sw"

In Romans 16 we have Phebe, Priscilla, Mary Junia, Tryphosa, Persis, all female names, women mentioned as laborers in the gospel.

In Phil. 4:2-3 we have Euodias and Syntyche, two women who are mentioned as leaders in the local church at Philippi. They are refered to as "those WOMEN which labored with me in the Gospel."

Paul himself states many times these women laboured in the gospel with him. These women were teachers as was Paul, they taught along side Paul. Teachers, but there is never any mention of them ever being in authority over any men, or over Paul.

Being able to teach a man who knows nothing about God, all about God, does not give the teacher any authority over the man being taught.

If I were a Bible expert, male or female, and a King, or President of a powerful nation asked me to teach him about God, would that give me the authority to tell him what he can, should, or should not do?

Labored does not mean to teach.

sw

It's an interesting point... what does "labored" mean, in this context, in your opinion?

Paul obviously thought very highly of them so we can assume they were dedicated to assisting him in his ministry in some way. Perhaps they taught other women or even children. Perhaps they performed other tasks of service and labor. Its just speculation since we are not really told.

sw

If laboured does not mean to teach in your opinion, how can you now say perhaps they taught other women or even children? If, as you imply, they were teaching other women and children, and and if man happened to be listening and was interested in what was being taught, and untill then knew nothing of God or the gospel, would he not learn something by hearing as stated in Scripture? (John 12:47).

The Greek word for laboured is Sunathleo; "soon-ath-leh'-o;' sun, a prime. prep, denoting union; with or together but much closer than by association, companionship, process, instrumentality, addition.

To wrestle in company with, i.e. to seek jointly:-strive labour with, strive together for.

Other than teaching, what other way would a man and several women jointly strive together in the gospel. If all the women did was bake cookies, then Paul would have stated that wherever he went there were always women near him who would bake him his favourite bickies.

[firehill]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be.

Rumple you might like this passage.

John 10

1

[Rumple]

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

But keepers of natural sheep do have something to do with keepers of God people. Both should be taking on the odor of their flock. Both flocks do in fact stink, the former naturally and the latter before God.

In the OT women as well as men were natural shepherds or pastors. You would perhaps say that the writings of Paul in particular have changed this in the NT with regard to God's people. The OT often show a natural picture of the spiritual in the NT such as the respective natural roles of men and women, the latter needing to be in subjection to the former.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I please at least consider some of what I have presented here in one of my earlier posts as summed up in the following paragraph.

Spiritual women today are the Church and include both natural men and women which as such are to be silent in the Church when a minister is ministering God's Word via preaching or teaching. Spiritual men, on the other hand today are the ministers taking the active role Christ as the head teaching and preaching. Again both men and women are included in this group of spritually active ministers according to their calling at a given moment. Even a male pastor while listening to another minister takes on the silent role of a woman spiritually. Afterall, are we not all to be or do we not all, at least, seek to be part of Bride of Christ which is a woman? If you believe that this not possible, why not?

But most of us understand that Christ himself is represented in worship by the pastor and that is one reason why Paul believes the office of pastor should be limited to men only. It is the pastor that brings the Word of God (Christ) to the Bride. The church is the Bride and the pastor stands in the stead of Christ bringing Word and Sacrament. You cannot just arbitrarily ignore Paul's clear instructions regarding women's and men's roles. The silence of women Paul is talking about is actually preaching. Men, not women, should preach with the authority of God. If you are trying to overturn that by saying a woman in the Old Testament was a pastor of real sheep, there is no basis for it based on the clear NT teaching. There was no office of pastor in the OT and no Christian church but there was were also no women priest or elders either.

sw

The majority does not decide the issue. God does.

So we continue to disagree. I had only asked for consideration. Thank you for listening or reading what I had to say.

If anyone will be changed [you or I], it will, of course, be God that does it, not you or me.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." I Cor 3:6

Edited July 28, 2007 by Rumple

[Vickilynn]

The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be.

Shalom Rumple,

I'm sorry, but saying that women tended sheep (the animals) is not Biblical support for the theory that women should be pastors of people. You are reading something into the Scriptures that is simply not there for doctrine. It's a nice thought, but it's not correct exegesis.

[st. Worm]

Where did God ever, ever, ever, give a universal law through the words of a man?

Unbelievable. So Paul's authority (from Christ no less) as an Apostle and his words that we all acknowledge to be inspired of God no longer count when you don't like them. You have now gone from saying these words don't really mean what they say they mean to saying they might mean what they say but we just don't need to follow them. What is your next parlor trick for denying God's word?

sw

[st. Worm]

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

But keepers of natural sheep do have something to do with keepers of God people. Both should be taking on the odor of their flock. Both flocks do in fact stink, the former naturally and the latter before God.

In the OT women as well as men were natural shepherds or pastors. You would perhaps say that the writings of Paul in particular have changed this in the NT with regard to God's people. The OT often show a natural picture of the spiritual in the NT such as the respective natural roles of men and women, the latter needing to be in subjection to the former.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I please at least consider some of what I have presented here in one of my earlier posts as summed up in the following paragraph.

Spiritual women today are the Church and include both natural men and women which as such are to be silent in the Church when a minister is ministering God's Word via preaching or teaching. Spiritual men, on the other hand today are the ministers taking the active role Christ as the head teaching and preaching. Again both men and women are included in this group of spritually active ministers according to their calling at a given moment. Even a male pastor while listening to another minister takes on the silent role of a woman spiritually. Afterall, are we not all to be or do we not all, at least, seek to be part of Bride of Christ which is a woman? If you believe that this not possible, why not?

But most of us understand that Christ himself is represented in worship by the pastor and that is one reason why Paul believes the office of pastor should be limited to men only. It is the pastor that brings the Word of God (Christ) to the Bride. The church is the Bride and the pastor stands in the stead of Christ bringing Word and Sacrament. You cannot just arbitrarily ignore Paul's clear instructions regarding women's and men's roles. The silence of women Paul is talking about is actually preaching. Men, not women, should preach with the authority of God. If you are trying to overturn that by saying a woman in the Old Testament was a pastor of real sheep, there is no basis for it based on the clear NT teaching. There was no office of pastor in the OT and no Christian church but there was were also no women priest or elders either.

sw

The majority does not decide the issue. God does.

So we continue to disagree. I had only asked for consideration. Thank you for listening or reading what I had to say.

If anyone will be changed [you or I], it will, of course, be God that does it, not you or me.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." I Cor 3:6

Indeed God has already decided. The Old Testament, New Testament, 2000 years of the church and the actions of Jesus himself indicate women are not be in authority in the church.

sw

[firehill]

Where did God ever, ever, ever, give a universal law through the words of a man?

Unbelievable. So Paul's authority (from Christ no less) as an Apostle and his words that we all acknowledge to be inspired of God no longer count when you don't like them. You have now gone from saying these words don't really mean what they say they mean to saying they might mean what they say but we just don't need to follow them. What is your next parlor trick for denying God's word?

sw

You cannot twist an apostles situational words into a universal Law of GOD. Paul was a called apostle who's words were inspired. You've still not provided any place where God gives his Laws through a man saying 'I...' Paul did not say, 'This is a command from the Lord' nor did he quote an OT passage! The bible doesn't contradict itself but according to you it does which is something to consider.

You've still not provided a context of false teaching and Paul leaving Timothy behind to stop women from teaching correct doctrine. And you've not answered to Paul addressing ANYONE in 1 Timothy 3.