Legalism

[OopsMartin]

I am not sure I know any of the answers; I just wondered what people thought. I think it is related to legalism, which in my mind is also sin.

I agree totally that it does have something to do with adding to scripture and a mindset which involves binding others without looking to ourselves. The term itself was not used, but it actually goes to some of what Luther originally rightfully criticized the Roman Church about and which sparked the Reformation. The idea of performing religious duties that had nothing to do with scripture or with faith in Christ, but were simply formalities and ritual and doctrines of men and which were used as a weapon by the leaders, this is legalism to me. At some level it denies faith and is a works based mentality.

At the same time I do think that sometimes anybody who brings up the importance of striving for holiness, of battling against the works of the flesh, or even sin itself, and particularly how to encourage people through discipline get accused of being legalistic.

I have looked as legalism as expecting others to live as I do. If you dont do this as I do this, you are not pleasing God type of mentatlity. Since a person feels to live a certain way because of their faith in God, it is legalism to tell others that they must live as they do to be called Christian.

A way to be encouraging to others without being legalistic, is to be loving unconditionally. To allow the Holy Spirit withing the person to convict him/her of their own behaviors. We can show them what we do and why we do it, but we dont tell them that they have to do as we do.

Hi berribear,

I know what you mean.

However I have seen cases where I have friends who are looking to me for my approval or not, and my silence to them is approval! So it is very hard indeed. I also think today many people are just confused about what sin is and what it does as many things society takes as normal today are indeed sinful. So I think we do have some sort of a role or duty to show unrepentant sinners the truth.

Christ did both, to those who did not see their sin at all, He pointed it out; to those who saw their sin and were sorry He offered total forgiveness and comfort. This is the double edged sword of Christianity. I have no idea how to do that correctly though it is something I struggle with all of the time. Being judgmental is also a sin, not to mention a burden which turns us bitter on the inside.

Being judgmental is also a sin, not to mention a burden which turns us bitter on the inside.

So true. In fact I would say that being judgmental is one of the major backbones of legalism. The nature of legalism is to inflict offense on others while elevating self. Condemning is another one. Then that strange attitude of "holier-than-thou", coupled with "anyone who disagrees is just stupid and possibly a heretic".... to name a few. I have to say that IMO legalism is rampant in the churches. And it has little to nothing to do with truly seeking to be holy oneself, or of discipline, real spiritual authority, humility, except in false appearances. The really sad thing is that sometimes people think they are being righteous but really they are just legalistically following a set of man-made rules. I think it's difficult to be legalistic about truth. The nature of truth is covered in Christlike meekness, Christlike suffering, servant heartedness, sincere compassion and love of the brethren.

Having said that, it's really not all that easy to sort out.

[tsth]

You know the reason that they hated Christ Jesus, was because He told them of their sin.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[TM75]

Tyndale and Luther to shew you sin and righteousness

I am not sure I know any of the answers; I just wondered what people thought. I think it is related to legalism, which in my mind is also sin.

I agree totally that it does have something to do with adding to scripture and a mindset which involves binding others without looking to ourselves. The term itself was not used, but it actually goes to some of what Luther originally rightfully criticized the Roman Church about and which sparked the Reformation. The idea of performing religious duties that had nothing to do with scripture or with faith in Christ, but were simply formalities and ritual and doctrines of men and which were used as a weapon by the leaders, this is legalism to me. At some level it denies faith and is a works based mentality.

At the same time I do think that sometimes anybody who brings up the importance of striving for holiness, of battling against the works of the flesh, or even sin itself, and particularly how to encourage people through discipline get accused of being legalistic.

I have looked as legalism as expecting others to live as I do. If you dont do this as I do this, you are not pleasing God type of mentatlity. Since a person feels to live a certain way because of their faith in God, it is legalism to tell others that they must live as they do to be called Christian.

A way to be encouraging to others without being legalistic, is to be loving unconditionally. To allow the Holy Spirit withing the person to convict him/her of their own behaviors. We can show them what we do and why we do it, but we dont tell them that they have to do as we do.

I know what you mean.

However I have seen cases where I have friends who are looking to me for my approval or not, and my silence to them is approval! So it is very hard indeed. I also think today many people are just confused about what sin is and what it does as many things society takes as normal today are indeed sinful. So I think we do have some sort of a role or duty to show unrepentant sinners the truth.

Being judgmental is also a sin, not to mention a burden which turns us bitter on the inside.

So true. In fact I would say that being judgmental is one of the major backbones of legalism. The nature of legalism is to inflict offense on others while elevating self. Condemning is another one. Then that strange attitude of "holier-than-thou", coupled with "anyone who disagrees is just stupid and possibly a heretic".... to name a few. I have to say that IMO legalism is rampant in the churches. And it has little to nothing to do with truly seeking to be holy oneself, or of discipline, real spiritual authority, humility, except in false appearances. The really sad thing is that sometimes people think they are being righteous but really they are just legalistically following a set of man-made rules. I think it's difficult to be legalistic about truth. The nature of truth is covered in Christlike meekness, Christlike suffering, servant heartedness, sincere compassion and love of the brethren.

Having said that, it's really not all that easy to sort out.

Legalism is a collection of men's doctrines that are designed to shut the doors to the kingdom of heaven that no man understand Christ Jesus's words. These also do not know who God servants are and would not know how to face the adversity of actually being one holding to the narrow way. Only in us, lust has been thrown out by grace; certain law can be kept by those under it, like fornication, kill and steal; often those that bear false witness cannot control it.

But you are they that use outward ceremonies with men's doctrines. Jesus said of them; these that nigh unto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, teaching nothing but men's precepts.

2 names of righteous men, a generation which I can not condemn, so I cannot believe those blind leaders of the blind, these are makers of sects, natural, having no spirit. Adversion and perils seem to not be peace, love joy and hope, yet makes us thankful that Christ in us keepeth us from evil.

Being reformed now, means being able to tell the wolves that came up in generations following 1537, which hong upon covetousness and had a false baptism, and they muddled the view of God and his chosen.

Jesus: My doctrine is not mine but his that sent me

Edited August 24, 2007 by TM75

[kat8585]

Legalism, what is it? There seems to be some confusion as to what it is. What constitutes legalism? I believe that because of the lack of understanding of what legalism is that most who claim to be fundamentalists are actually moderates or liberals and do not know it.

I started a thread on this subject in the Controversial section. To me, there is no such thing as what we call "legalism" found in the Bible. Even those who teach the anti-legalism doctrine are inconsistent. What one person considers legalistic, another finds perfectly fine. Here is what legalism is to me. It is a man-made doctrine used to prevent people from preaching or teaching against a certain behavior that an individual is doing. If a person is a smoker, they will call someone who stands against tobacco legalistic. If a person doesn't tithe, they will call someone who teaches the need to tithe legalistic. It is a label people use to demonize anyone that stands against something they are doing.

This is a perfect description for some people I know.

[Eddie B]

Are you trying to please God by your own good works or are you trusting in Christ and then living to please God? Do you practice diligent service, discipline, and obedience in hope of reward? Or do you confess, submit, and commit, yourself to Christ's control?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[tsth]

But, the "hearing of faith" produces fruit as well, which can also be a reward of such. It saves. Believing unto obedience saves. This is the "hearing by faith" it is believing what God says, to be true, no matter what. Just think, Noah could have easily said, "no, I think building an ark is works, so I'll just have faith that God will save me, and wait upon Him, without working out, what I heard, in belief." To just hear alone, is not faith. To hear and believe/obey.........THAT is true FAITH.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Eddie B]

But, the "hearing of faith" produces fruit as well, which can also be a reward of such. It saves. Believing unto obedience saves. This is the "hearing by faith" it is believing what God says, to be true, no matter what. Just think, Noah could have easily said, "no, I think building an ark is works, so I'll just have faith that God will save me, and wait upon Him, without working out, what I heard, in belief." To just hear alone, is not faith. To hear and believe/obey.........THAT is true FAITH.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I agree just hearing is not true faith.

In justification:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In santification:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[OopsMartin]

But, the "hearing of faith" produces fruit as well, which can also be a reward of such. It saves. Believing unto obedience saves. This is the "hearing by faith" it is believing what God says, to be true, no matter what. Just think, Noah could have easily said, "no, I think building an ark is works, so I'll just have faith that God will save me, and wait upon Him, without working out, what I heard, in belief." To just hear alone, is not faith. To hear and believe/obey.........THAT is true FAITH.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I agree just hearing is not true faith.

In justification:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In santification:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yep, agree with you both.

Then the problem becomes recognizing what is God's and what is man's. Obeying man-made rules and works, such as the kind that the Pharisees laid on the shoulders of their brethren, does not profit The Way that God would have us profit, and it does not produce the humble hearted servant who has wisdom from above. God called the pharisees, who strained under their heavy load of man-made rules and gloried themselves at their obedience, white washed tombs. They were dead on the inside but looking good on the outside!

[Eddie B]

Hears something that i keep on hand that helps me see the legalist attitude i can have at times and how not to have such an attitude. Hope the way i laid it out isnt to confusing.

Area Under Law

1 View of the law A set of detailed obligations that I must keep

Rigid application of case law

Under Grace

The underlying principles of the law describe the ultimate goal toward which God is moving me: a loving life-style

Under Law

2 View of self I am regenerate, and therefore I am able to keep the law

The law helps me live for God.

Under Grace

I am regenerate, but I still can't keep the law, because of my "outer man."

By relying on the Spirit, not the letter, I can gradually change

Under Law

3 View of the Holy Spirit Little practical understanding of the Spirit's ministries

Under Grace

Depends on the Holy Spirit for all power, Motivation, and direction

Under Law

4 The "Key" to spiritual growth Self discipline or Special experiences

Under Grace

Knows self-effort is futile Romans 7:18

Looks to a process, not to quick-fix experiences

Under Law

5 Approach to Scripture Relies on an inconsistent hermeneutic

Unable to harmonize Jesus and the epistles

Under Grace

Is consistent, and is able to harmonize the gospels and epistles

Under Law

6 Mental focus My duty: to do what the rules require

Under Grace

Identification with Christ\

Personal relationship with God

Loving others as a means of growth

Under Law

7 Reaction to failure Surprised and distressed

Rationalizations, minimization, blame-shifting and self-recrimmination

Vows to do better

Under Grace

Not surprised

Confident of God's acceptance

Return to active dependence

Under Law

8 Reaction to success Proud and intolerant of others

Under Grace

Humbly grateful

Still able to empathize with those who fall

Sees continued need for growth

Under Law

9 Eventual result External conformity, but increasing internal defeat and hypocrisy

Growing cynicism and despair OR:

Self-righteous externalistic comparisons--self deception

Under Grace

.Gradual transformation into a person with a measure of victory over sin and a spiritual mind-set

A more loving person

[OopsMartin]

This brings to mind another false teaching, Jesus' problem with the scribes and pharisees. He didn't rebuke them for being strict adherants to the law, but for being hypocrites. In some cases, they created traditions that allowed them to break the law. He wouldn't have rebuked them for teaching the law, as he states they stand in Moses' seat, Matthew 23:2,3.

The purpose of the Mishnah was to create a layer of laws and another layer of laws that would keep them from breaking The Law. If they violated something in the first layer they still had not broken the Laws of God. The problem was that in their human reasoning they were actually creating rules that caused them to violate some of God's Laws because they did not have full understanding. Their hearts became proud. They elevated themselves above others. It is always that way when humans create rules in addition to God's rules of conduct. And when humans create rules from a misunderstanding of God's Law they add injury upon injury to some.