other one Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,162 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,884 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted December 12, 2007 John 1:1 teaches us that the Word is eternal like God, He is in unity with God and He is God like God. Certainly they are equal but the progression of revelation in the scripture shows that they are separate identities and assume functions within the God head. Are they equal? Why does Jesus tell us that only the Father knows when he will return, and why is blasphemy of the Father and Son forgivable but not the Holy Spirit. If they are/were always equal then why does Jesus say after His resurection that all power and authority had been given to Him, if he was equal with the Father. Some questions I have always had concerning the equal part. I do believe that they are more or less equal today, but 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all. After Jesus has subjectes all things to himself then the Son Himself will be subject to the Father which subjected all things to Jesus in the first place. They were not equal in the begining, they are equal now, but will not be when Jesus becomes in total control of everything. So I personally can't go along with the equal part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life. It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality. So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world? Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him. Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givennewname Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Share Posted December 12, 2007 John 1:1 teaches us that the Word is eternal like God, He is in unity with God and He is God like God. Certainly they are equal but the progression of revelation in the scripture shows that they are separate identities and assume functions within the God head. Are they equal? Why does Jesus tell us that only the Father knows when he will return, and why is blasphemy of the Father and Son forgivable but not the Holy Spirit. If they are/were always equal then why does Jesus say after His resurection that all power and authority had been given to Him, if he was equal with the Father. Some questions I have always had concerning the equal part. I do believe that they are more or less equal today, but 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all. After Jesus has subjectes all things to himself then the Son Himself will be subject to the Father which subjected all things to Jesus in the first place. They were not equal in the begining, they are equal now, but will not be when Jesus becomes in total control of everything. So I personally can't go along with the equal part. Dear other one, Just because one person of the Godhead is subject to another does not mean they are not equal in power and ability. So I personally can't go along with the equal part. Take the example of a husband and wife. The Bible tells a wife to subject herself to her husband, that does not mean she is not equal in ability nor is she inferior in any way to her husband with regards to intellect or ability. Another example is that I work in a university as a senior lecturer. Although I subject myself to the authority of the professor who is inferior in morals and intelligence, he is still incharge of the department. I think the same goes for yr boss, it does not mean you are inferiorto any humans in yr workplace. Paul at least teach that the Son of God is co-equal to the Father, Philippians 2:6-11, "your attitude should be that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not considered equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant to humble himself and became obedient to death -- even to death on a cross" The author of Hebrews did say that during his incarnation The Lord Jesus was made a little lower in status to angels and in his form as a man, he did deprive himself of power and knowledge of certain things that you have mentioned in yr article, but this was not a permanent situation. Heb 2:6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands: Heb 2:8 Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him. Heb 2:9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man. Hebrews then go on to say that in his resurrected form, God placed him far above the angels. Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire: Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. If the three persons are all God in three persons, how can they not be equal?? New creature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatsitmean Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 881 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 They were not equal in the begining, they are equal now, but will not be when Jesus becomes in total control of everything. So I personally can't go along with the equal part. This is pretty off topic and maybe a little beyond the scope of human understanding. The way that I see it is that our Creator is infinite in every way. The creation is attributed to all persons of the Trinity thus one can not be more or less than equal to the others, except as I said, they assume different roles for our benefit. Even in the body of Christ, we are many members, but one body so I think 1 Cor. 12 is useful reading and 1 Pet 5:5, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatsitmean Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 881 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life. It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality. So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world? Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him. Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. I simply said that if you don't believe in the trinity, you can't answer the question because the Gift of God spoken of in John 3:16 can only be understood and have any meaning in the context of the Trinity in the traditional, Fundamentalist sense of the word, i.e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life. It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality. So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world? Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him. Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. I simply said that if you don't believe in the trinity, you can't answer the question because the Gift of God spoken of in John 3:16 can only be understood and have any meaning in the context of the Trinity in the traditional, Fundamentalist sense of the word, i.e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatsitmean Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 881 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 Would another hint help? It will give you a little more to think about anyway. It (the giving of the gift) can never be repeated. Under any circumstances. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, unless the word God should utterly fail. (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:26-28;1 Peter 3:18) Lacking the knowledge and relevance of God's gift, the Unitarian has no real security in his relationship with God. The first couple were Unitarians, they could not see any way that the Creator was bound to be truly honest with them. Eve was deceived into thinking that something good might be withheld from them and Adam could come up with no good reason why God could not be disobeyed. That is to say, there was no bond of love or trust between them, but he did love his wife enough to die for her or with her. Of course they changed their minds afterwords with further revelation. Job, on the other hand, did not curse God and die but endured great suffering because he knew that his Redeemer liveth and that one day He would stand upon the Earth. 1Peter 1:18-21 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life. It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality. So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world? Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him. Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. What part of the Trinity do you disagree with, or what part of the definition? To me if you believe in Christ as spoken of in scripture, the one who all things were created through, then you do indeed believe in the Trinity, it may just be semantics? I don't try to get into the complexities but for me it is very simple only God can forgive sins and I want and need my sins forgiven thus I must know who God is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 John 1:1 teaches us that the Word is eternal like God, He is in unity with God and He is God like God. Evidently He gave up that knowledge in becoming flesh . So b4 incarnation,was Jesus. A.God himself.(The Father) B.God the Son. C.The word of God. D.any other opinions? B. God the Son. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, three in one. When Jesus came to earth he "set aside" his God-head to become man. He did not stop being God, he just set it aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted December 18, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted December 18, 2007 damo1 To whats it mean it seems one is not accepting what another person sees and understands for them selves i too do not belive in trinity and in oneness does that mean i am going to hell ? even my pastor and the people in my church are like me and their are many others i know also who see things my way i belive in everything that is said in gods word does that mean i am going to hell because i do not belive in trinity or in oneness ? i would like to see you try to correct me whats it mean seems to me you are trying to preach to mutzrein hear or has it blown you away that their are christians who do not hold on to trinity or onenes views ? i could have played along with you but i am one of these guys that belive in being honest when i apply to a topic and some times my naked truth can offend can i ask you a simple question with out you throwing bible verses or hidding behind bible verses that you are comfterbal with do you belive in everything that is said in gods word do you belive also the warnings that were given to the churches in revelations ? do you also belive that when god does decide to judge the whole world he will hold you acountable for what you say and do while you are alive on this earth see i belive this i belive the same warnings that were given to the 7 churches in revelations are also given to us today 'i also belive in this nothing will be hidden when god does decide to judge the whole world are you trying to tell us that do not hold on to trinity or oneness views we need to repent ? and see things your way ? and will you be able to respond to god and tell him why you sat in on judgment on those that do not hold on to your views the bible is very simple to uderstand whats it mean if we allow the holy spirit to lead us and if he has full reign in our lives why do people like your self have to complicate things did Jesus ever say to the disciples you have to hold on to onenes or trinity views ? did jesus ever say to any one who heard him preach you must hold on to trinity or oneness views Jesus came to save the world Jesus did not come to judge the world Jesus also says if you do not belive in me i will not judge you John 12 48 he who rejects me and does not receive my words has that which judges him the word that i have spoken will judge him in the last day 49 for i have not spoken on my own authority but the father who sent me gave me a command what i should say and what i should speak 50 and i know that his command is everlasting life Therefore what ever i speak just as the father has told me so i speak what is this saying to you whats it mean was Jesus lying in these verses in John 12 ? was Jesus toying with the disciples and those who heard him preach ? read all of John 12 with out sifting gods word its a simple request whats it mean by the way strange usser name what does this mean whats it mean please when some one applys to a topic dont jump the gun whats it mean learn to hear what is being said to you any way this topic is did Jesus pray to him self i am a little bit dumb or dumb founded in my way of understanding what has been said in the last sevral posts hear on this topic were does trinity and oneness views fit in ? to the question did jesus pray to him self please educate me whats it mean i would be very intrested to hear you preach gods word to me god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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