Another take on "Free Will"

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

But, I've never seen evidence that we become a believer (in Christ), and then God predestinates us to become a believer.

that's because you want the double action. It does not say that and it is not what I had stated.

What it says is that one must be in Christ, before one is chosen. In other words, Christ knew who would believe, and those that believe are IN Christ. Those He chose to predestinate. He predestinated to become transformed in His Image. There is no chosing of a believer to be a believer.

That is exactly what I said it meant. We are predisposed to action (acceptance of Jessus) from an external source (God.) Those predisposed to believe (those God called or chose) to believe, believed.

If that's what you meant, then it still is not what it means. God does not need to chose in order to predispose.

God, because of Christ's work on the Cross, calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit is working in this world to convict men of their sin. That is the action that is predispossing men to believe.

He worked in my life, which was predisposed to believe, and at the right moment, I believed.

yes, that is correct, but you are not an exception from every other human being that has ever lived. Man will make an active choice either for or against God. He desires that all be saved, so why would He not work for that end. But God also made man free. Man chooses whom he will serve. God honors that decision for good or bad. That is the justice of God. Rather than to have been condemned to death by the actions of one man by one sin, Christ redeemed us, freed us from that bondage, to be able to do what we were created to do, freely love or reject Him. Why would God dishonor His creatures by putting us back into some form of bondage? Even if it is in bondage to Him. He created us free to not have forced love. you want God to do the opposite of what and why He created us, to do and be with Him.

Again, we will never know what God has done in our lives, so from our perspective, we are making the decisions, but the Bible clearly says that God does the work of salvation, and we are the recipients of His work.

Yes, from God's perspective also we are making the decisions. And yes, God is doing all the work. No one, to my knowledge has ever stated that man actually does the work. But God will not do the work unless man works with Him to that end. You seem to have understood, but then you always fall back into the believer being predestined. God went through a lot of trouble because Man was created free. Why predestinate Him at this point when just predestinating Adam would prevented all the problems in the first place. Being created free and being predestinated are opposites. They are separate actions, connected, but are not the cause of each other.

In essence, I still believe the Bible teaches both predestination and free will.

yes, it does, but not both to the believer. They are opposites.

I'm just saying that to deny that God works in our lives to bring us to faith, and give us the faith, and the repentance, is to deny clear-cut Scriptures and to make God less powerful and sovereign than He is.

One does not need to do that at all. But God working in our lives is also opposite of predestination of believers as well. If we were predestined to believe, then God would not need to call all men to repentance. He wouldn't even need to call anyone. We would be predestined to believe. You just removed the whole work of the Holy Spirit in God's created order.

And the texts of acts would need to be changed from predisposed to predestinated to believe.

I understand others might disagree with my interpretation of how predestination and choice "work together", but I have a difficult time understanding how one can say that those Scriptures about predestination mean something other than what they actually say.

They mean exactly what they say, but they do not ever say that a believer is predestined to be a believer. It does not make God less Sovereign but more Sovereign. He made man capable of rejecting his creator but that it would not destroy the universe if man did so. By the way, it also would absolve any need for judgement. Man is judged solely on that free choice. If we are predestined to believe, ;thus those not, cannot be judged on what they did with Christ. God is simply judging himself or He is quite disingenuous.

From what I see in the Scriptures, it is not a "either/or" deal, but a "both" deal.

Again, it is both, but not both on the believer. I hope, I have at least shown that they are opposites of each other. Presdestination of a beliver turns revelation and Scripture on its head.

If a person is predestined to believe, then obvious consequences of this result but one is that God would not need to give us His revelation to inform us on how to make that free choice. We are to live in conformity with His will. It means we align our wills with His based on that revealed truth. But if we are predestined to believe then why do we need to know what to do, it is already done for us. See the opposite that free will would be of predestinate.

[kjn]

Thanks for your responses and Bible references and perspectives.

So, as I think about the word "appointed" used in Acts 13:48, it raises the question: Can something or someone be appointed by someone to something, but the appointed thing doesn't actually occur? Can this happen if God is the one doing the appointing? And now I see that Acts 13:48 doesn't name the appointer, just points out the the appointees.

RE Act 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (other versions 'appointed') to eternal life believed.

Strong's concordance gives these definitions for the Greek word 'tasso'

1) to put in order, to station

a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one

b) to appoint, ordain, order

1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority

2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

These are other references (KJV) where the Greek word tasso is used.

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him (Paul) a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

In all of these cases, it appears that whatever was appointed was carried out. But in Acts 28:23, if Paul had been sick or otherwise deterred, the day had already been appointed, but could've been cancelled or delayed. Appointments can sometimes be made without being carried out.

Eph. 1:5 says Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...

The Greek for the KJV ''predestinated" is pro-orizo.

pro means 'pre-'

orizo means (according to Strong's)

1) to define

a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

b) to determine, appoint

1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

2) to ordain, determine, appoint

Is the meaning that it's a rigid appointment, or is it that there are boundaries set up? How rigid is the choosing, the predestinating, the appointing? And of course it raises more questions of the appointer and whatever the appointment is. But it just gets me to wondering.

[TM75]

Thanks for your responses and Bible references and perspectives.

So, as I think about the word "appointed" used in Acts 13:48, it raises the question: Can something or someone be appointed by someone to something, but the appointed thing doesn't actually occur? Can this happen if God is the one doing the appointing? And now I see that Acts 13:48 doesn't name the appointer, just points out the the appointees.

RE Act 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (other versions 'appointed') to eternal life believed.

Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him (Paul) a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

In all of these cases, it appears that whatever was appointed was carried out. But in Acts 28:23, if Paul had been sick or otherwise deterred, the day had already been appointed, but could've been cancelled or delayed. Appointments can sometimes be made without being carried out.

Eph. 1:5 says Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...

The Greek for the KJV ''predestinated" is pro-orizo.

pro means 'pre-'

orizo means (according to Strong's)

1) to define

a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

b) to determine, appoint

1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

2) to ordain, determine, appoint

Is the meaning that it's a rigid appointment, or is it that there are boundaries set up? How rigid is the choosing, the predestinating, the appointing? And of course it raises more questions of the appointer and whatever the appointment is. But it just gets me to wondering.

I am not a greek scholar, don't have the gift of interpretation, but English is a natural to the ol plow man.

TO predestinate is to call, being chosen in fact, allows you to see the sons of men as flour, because soon we will all go our way, whether we live in obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

See this; Isaiah 51

[kjn]

I am not a greek scholar, don't have the gift of interpretation, but English is a natural to the ol plow man.

TO predestinate is to call, being chosen in fact, allows you to see the sons of men as flour, because soon we will all go our way, whether we live in obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

See this; Isaiah 51

[Rhonda Lou]

I am not a greek scholar, don't have the gift of interpretation, but English is a natural to the ol plow man.

TO predestinate is to call, being chosen in fact, allows you to see the sons of men as flour, because soon we will all go our way, whether we live in obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

See this; Isaiah 51

[TM75]

I am not a greek scholar, don't have the gift of interpretation, but English is a natural to the ol plow man.

TO predestinate is to call, being chosen in fact, allows you to see the sons of men as flour, because soon we will all go our way, whether we live in obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

See this; Isaiah 51

[MeCajunboy]

Rhonda Lou,

But, I've never seen evidence that we become a believer (in Christ), and then God predestinates us to become a believer.

that's because you want the double action. It does not say that and it is not what I had stated.

What it says is that one must be in Christ, before one is chosen. In other words, Christ knew who would believe, and those that believe are IN Christ. Those He chose to predestinate. He predestinated to become transformed in His Image. There is no chosing of a believer to be a believer.

That is exactly what I said it meant. We are predisposed to action (acceptance of Jessus) from an external source (God.) Those predisposed to believe (those God called or chose) to believe, believed.

If that's what you meant, then it still is not what it means. God does not need to chose in order to predispose.

God, because of Christ's work on the Cross, calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit is working in this world to convict men of their sin. That is the action that is predispossing men to believe.

He worked in my life, which was predisposed to believe, and at the right moment, I believed.

yes, that is correct, but you are not an exception from every other human being that has ever lived. Man will make an active choice either for or against God. He desires that all be saved, so why would He not work for that end. But God also made man free. Man chooses whom he will serve. God honors that decision for good or bad. That is the justice of God. Rather than to have been condemned to death by the actions of one man by one sin, Christ redeemed us, freed us from that bondage, to be able to do what we were created to do, freely love or reject Him. Why would God dishonor His creatures by putting us back into some form of bondage? Even if it is in bondage to Him. He created us free to not have forced love. you want God to do the opposite of what and why He created us, to do and be with Him.

Again, we will never know what God has done in our lives, so from our perspective, we are making the decisions, but the Bible clearly says that God does the work of salvation, and we are the recipients of His work.

Yes, from God's perspective also we are making the decisions. And yes, God is doing all the work. No one, to my knowledge has ever stated that man actually does the work. But God will not do the work unless man works with Him to that end. You seem to have understood, but then you always fall back into the believer being predestined. God went through a lot of trouble because Man was created free. Why predestinate Him at this point when just predestinating Adam would prevented all the problems in the first place. Being created free and being predestinated are opposites. They are separate actions, connected, but are not the cause of each other.

In essence, I still believe the Bible teaches both predestination and free will.

yes, it does, but not both to the believer. They are opposites.

I'm just saying that to deny that God works in our lives to bring us to faith, and give us the faith, and the repentance, is to deny clear-cut Scriptures and to make God less powerful and sovereign than He is.

One does not need to do that at all. But God working in our lives is also opposite of predestination of believers as well. If we were predestined to believe, then God would not need to call all men to repentance. He wouldn't even need to call anyone. We would be predestined to believe. You just removed the whole work of the Holy Spirit in God's created order.

And the texts of acts would need to be changed from predisposed to predestinated to believe.

I understand others might disagree with my interpretation of how predestination and choice "work together", but I have a difficult time understanding how one can say that those Scriptures about predestination mean something other than what they actually say.

They mean exactly what they say, but they do not ever say that a believer is predestined to be a believer. It does not make God less Sovereign but more Sovereign. He made man capable of rejecting his creator but that it would not destroy the universe if man did so. By the way, it also would absolve any need for judgement. Man is judged solely on that free choice. If we are predestined to believe, ;thus those not, cannot be judged on what they did with Christ. God is simply judging himself or He is quite disingenuous.

From what I see in the Scriptures, it is not a "either/or" deal, but a "both" deal.

Again, it is both, but not both on the believer. I hope, I have at least shown that they are opposites of each other. Presdestination of a beliver turns revelation and Scripture on its head.

If a person is predestined to believe, then obvious consequences of this result but one is that God would not need to give us His revelation to inform us on how to make that free choice. We are to live in conformity with His will. It means we align our wills with His based on that revealed truth. But if we are predestined to believe then why do we need to know what to do, it is already done for us. See the opposite that free will would be of predestinate.

Praise God.....I've finally found someone that I have "Like Minds" with! Thanks Thaddaeus

[Fraught]

I disagree that belief in predestination leads to an indifference to sin. It may seem logical that it would, but it has been my belief in predestination which has galvanized me into holiness. Other Christians who have believed in predestination include Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Marthin Luther, St. Augustine, and, yes, John Calvin. They are also extremely "holy" by earth's standards. Paul, who believed in predestination, felt worse about his sin as he became an increasingly mature Christian. The closest I can come to an explanation is this:

A) The fact that God chose me, little old me, who is so weak and sinful, is such a blessing and an honor that I'd like to honor God back by being what He called me to be, though I know I need Him to do it through me.

altho i haven't come to a decision about this and may never, this last statement, Rhonda, truly rings a bell in me. in fact, when i began to consider predestination more seriously via this post, i did in fact feel more joyful about my faith and more anxious to please God rather than less so. i guess the only analogy i can think of is that of a child wanting to make a parent proud if that makes any sense. and that analogy can go further as a previous poster said, the child did not choose to be born yet wants to please a loving parent just the same.

[BurnForChrist]

I disagree that belief in predestination leads to an indifference to sin. It may seem logical that it would, but it has been my belief in predestination which has galvanized me into holiness. Other Christians who have believed in predestination include Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Marthin Luther, St. Augustine, and, yes, John Calvin. They are also extremely "holy" by earth's standards. Paul, who believed in predestination, felt worse about his sin as he became an increasingly mature Christian. The closest I can come to an explanation is this:

A) The fact that God chose me, little old me, who is so weak and sinful, is such a blessing and an honor that I'd like to honor God back by being what He called me to be, though I know I need Him to do it through me.

I would agree that GOD choose me, not based on anything I did, any good or evil, but Uncondtionally, where do I get this from?

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

We see GODs sovereign freedom in electing Jacob over Esau. The basis of his choice was NOT based on ANYTHING they did, but rather unconditionally. Its not of works, but GODs electing Grace.

Romans 9:14-16 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

Ephesians 1:4-6 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

Ephesians 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

In my opinion you have to truly understand man's depravity in order to understand this.

Burn

Edited September 21, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[BurnForChrist]

Rhonda Lou,

But, I've never seen evidence that we become a believer (in Christ), and then God predestinates us to become a believer.

That's because you want the double action. It does not say that and it is not what I had stated.

What it says is that one must be in Christ, before one is chosen. In other words, Christ knew who would believe, and those that believe are IN Christ. Those He chose to predestinate. He predestinated to become transformed in His Image. There is no chosing of a believer to be a believer.

Oh really? Is that what the scriptures say?

Ephesians 1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

There is no where in all of scripture that says you must be in Christ in order to be chosen. But rather choosen in Christ and appointed by GOD to believe, as the scriptures say:

Acts 13:48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Ephesians 1:5-6 "Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

So according to the good pleasure of His Will, he predestined us to be adopted as sons by Jesus Christ to himself. He choose us in his son, before the Foundation of the World. Let me ask you a question, what did Jesus mean when he said "You did not choose me but I choose you" (John 15:16)

Edited September 21, 2007 by BurnForChrist