how about y opinion about man with long hair?

[Guest shiloh357]

i love the way how some here are using excuses to justify reasons for men to have long hair.

whether it's historical, Paul's "perception", or not meant for us.....; one cannot avoid one scripture:

1 cor 11:14 "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

-close the thread

then do tell....WHAT IS LONG HAIR?

i think you want to aim your frustration and questions at the bible.

you must have long hair?

All I can do is present what scripture says. There isn't a hair police going around with a ruler.

Just because you question the bible on not being specific of length does not give it a pass to override scripture.

"it never says a length therfeore it does not matter."

Actually length does matter. If the issue is about pleasing and obeying the Lord, it follows that we must know what limits God places on hair length.

The fact that God does not provide us with any such length requirements demonstrates that a different issue is in play. You simply want to take an inferior face-value approach to Scripture, but that makes the text servant to reader. It is up to the reader to determine for himself what constitutes "long hair" and that opens up others to condemnation if they don't meet someone else's opinion of what "long hair" means.

There is simply no doctrinal material that denotes what long hair means. That is why we must rely on the cultural and historical information to understand how they flavor Paul's instructions.

[Guest man]

I've been an indian for almost 53 years. I

Been thinking about this - did you grow up on a reservation?

I know what's on the reservation, I've seen it.

I'll take that as a no.

Take it however you like.

You have no idea. You're on the outside looking in. Try spending some time on the inside looking out.

[nebula]

These kind of statements hurt your cause more than help it. If someone is basically disowned because they want to better themselves, where does the fault lie? It sounds like they're holding themselves in bondage.

The Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost . (Luke 19:10)

How do you help someone who doesn't recognize that they need it?

You intercede for them. And you love them.

I've been an indian for almost 53 years. I

Been thinking about this - did you grow up on a reservation?

I know what's on the reservation, I've seen it.

I'll take that as a no.

Take it however you like.

You have no idea. You're on the outside looking in. Try spending some time on the inside looking out.

Well, you are intentionally being vague.

Instead of telling me how clueless I am, why don't you tell me what you've been through?

The way you speak, it comes across as either hiding or arrogance. Neither of which are helpful.

[Guest man]

How do you help someone who doesn't recognize that they need it?

You intercede for them. And you love them.

With what? Welfare checks and pity. That's what's keeping these people in bondage. They know if they stick out their hand, someone's gonna fill it. They need to be taught that anyone who is not them is not their enemy. They have the same opportunity as everyone else. The only people who is holding them back is them. The same can be said for anyone. If you're not going anywhere, you're not trying.

I've been an indian for almost 53 years. I

Been thinking about this - did you grow up on a reservation?

I know what's on the reservation, I've seen it.

I'll take that as a no.

Take it however you like.

You have no idea. You're on the outside looking in. Try spending some time on the inside looking out.

Well, you are intentionally being vague.

Instead of telling me how clueless I am, why don't you tell me what you've been through?

The way you speak, it comes across as either hiding or arrogance. Neither of which are helpful.

Would that make a difference? How is my life story gonna help you understand?

All you see is the problem. What you should be looking at is the cause of that problem. If your roof is leaking, you don't just stand there and stare at it. You find out what's causing it to leak and you fix it. That's what needs to be done on some of these reservations. The American Indians need to come together as one people. Granted, there are many different tribes but they all suffer from the same disease.

[exrockstar]

i love the way how some here are using excuses to justify reasons for men to have long hair.

whether it's historical, Paul's "perception", or not meant for us.....; one cannot avoid one scripture:

1 cor 11:14 "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

-close the thread

Okaya, so let's have a definition from scripture of what long hair is. And, while we're at it, let's also address the question of why God would command those under a nazirite vow not to cut their hair during the time of their vow.

i would have thought that it is a visual statement claiming that you are giving your time to the lord. A person taking this vow would also give up wine, raisins, etc however there is no way that a person passing by could see that you are giving up those edible things. They can see that you have taken a vow just by looking at the length of your hair.

The interesting thing is that a person would shave only once a year after presenting their sacrifices. You were not to get close to any dead person as long as you have taken your

vow. If you did then you had to shave immediately.

I once pondered on the idea that the vow on the Nazarite (not cutting hair vow) is a representation of an order of Christ, man and woman. The vow (law) is written by God, you provide your sacrifice (Jesus) then you shave your head (man) as the year goes by the hair grows long (woman); then you do the same order the year to come. which is the same order as:

1 Cor 11: 3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

[nebula]

How do you help someone who doesn't recognize that they need it?

You intercede for them. And you love them.

With what? Welfare checks and pity. That's what's keeping these people in bondage. They know if they stick out their hand, someone's gonna fill it. They need to be taught that anyone who is not them is not their enemy. They have the same opportunity as everyone else. The only people who is holding them back is them. The same can be said for anyone. If you're not going anywhere, you're not trying.

How about with the Gospel?

I'm on the Intercessory team for a ministry that targets Native Americans; the leader being a Native American himself who grew up on a reservation.

Would that make a difference? How is my life story gonna help you understand?

Yes it would make a difference. Testimonies are powerful tools. You know - "by the word of their testimony"?

All you see is the problem. What you should be looking at is the cause of that problem. If your roof is leaking, you don't just stand there and stare at it. You find out what's causing it to leak and you fix it. That's what needs to be done on some of these reservations. The American Indians need to come together as one people. Granted, there are many different tribes but they all suffer from the same disease.

Why do you suppose I am unaware of the cause of the problem?

Sure they need to come together - but what is keeping them from coming together?

It is deeper than their attitudes - because there is something behind their attitudes.

[Guest man]

if you are going to talk about long hair, you need to be able to state what long hair is. otherwise it is a meaningless discussion.

I'm sure God is pleased to know His words are meaningless.

[Guest Butero]

so the point of this discussion would be.....?

I suppose it would be to determine if a man with long hair is a shame and if he dishonors his head?

It would also be to determine if a woman has short hair, if it is a shame and dishonors her head?

Just so we are clear, Paul is referring to spiritual headship, not the thing that sits on top of your neck.

Just to be clear, that is your view, not mine. I believe he is saying that the thing that sits on top of your neck is an outward sign of submission or rebellion.

Just to be clear, you are wrong. Look at verse 3 of chapter 11. That is what we learned in fifth grade is the topic sentence of this passage. If that still doesn't convince you, let me ask this: why would Paul give a command out of the clear blue on a topic that Jesus never addressed?

I know this is a hard concept for many to grasp, but the words of Paul are the word of Christ. God wrote the entire Bible, and though Paul may have penned 1 Corinthians, God gave him the words. God knew from the beginning that the Bible would be 66 books from Genesis to Revelation, and there is no reason for him to have to repeat himself through every single person he used to transcribe it.

I have looked very carefully at verse 3 and all the other verses from 1 through 16. Remember, that I went through all the verses already. This is speaking of authority, but when a man has short hair, it shows he is in submission to Christ and when a woman has long hair, it shows she is in submission to her husband and Christ.

[Guest Butero]

What is long and what is short is not what it plain. What is plain is that long hair on a guy is a shame and dishonors Christ and short hair on a woman dishonors her head. That much is spelled out. If someone is really concerned about what is long and what is short, then men should have their hair cut like the guy in your picture and women should never cut their hair. Simple enough. If on the other hand, people realize that you can follow this scripture without going to such extremes, and quit the nonsense of pretending like this passage is impossible to follow, let them do so.

nobody said it was impossible to follow, this is just a butero strawman.

This is a Running Gator strawman. I don't need a straw man argument, because I find this passage easy to follow. You are the one that keeps going on about what is long and what is short. That is the straw man.

[Guest Butero]

so the point of this discussion would be.....?

There are only two reasons I care about this debate.

1) I grew up trained to be legalistic. The Lord had to embarrass the daylights out of me as a means of beginning to break that. I now can see legalism for what it is, and I can see why it is destructive. So, I am chipping away at legalism.

I don't see Butero as being legalistic.

legalistic [ˌliːgəˈlɪstɪk]

adj

(Law) of, relating to, or exhibiting strict adherence to the law, esp to the letter of the law rather than its spirit

Dictionary

He's trying explain why "he" believes what he believes. Why can't people just accept that?

That goes both ways, actually.

2) I have a heart for the Native Americans. Listening to Native Americans who are ministers of the Gospel, they will tell you how much disgrace and bondage was brought to their people on account of this issue.

Are the indians still in bondage on account of this issue?

See for yourself

I am glad you brought that definition into the argument Nebula. I think it is a good thing to exhibit a strict adherance to the law. Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Apparently, Jesus was promoting legalism. That puts me in good company.

How is anyone in bondage Nebula regardless of what they believe on this topic? Nobody is claiming anyone is in sin if they don't follow the passage. The Bible does say it is a shame, and that is exactly what it is for a man to have long hair. If there are native American men with long hair, it is a shame.