Is it wrong to drink?

[Guest LadyC]

thoughtful, it IS biblical to judge the actions of fellow believers. we are to judge them righteously, by God's standard, not self-righteously by our own standards.

i is unbiblical for someone to judge another for having a glass of wine. it is unbiblical to judge the state of their salvation, also.

but it is correct for someone to judge the action of getting sloshed, and it is also biblical to judge that the person is showing no fruit of their salvation if they are proclaiming Christ with their lips and denying Him with their actions.

[hr.jr.]

I agree with the problems in society bit.

Why do you suggest that alcohol is a substance we don't need? Studies have shown that alcohol, taken in moderation, can be good and even healthy. What evidence do you have to say that we shouldn't drink it at all? I do think that drinking with reckless abandon isn't smart. I don't think, however, that getting intoxicated is a sin, or that im more "prone to attack" when i'm intoxicated. I drink occationally and get drunk about half of those times and its always in good fun. No one gets hurt, no one drives, i haven't done anything stupid. Im not always in control, i fall down a lot, but once again, its all in good fun. The only downside i have found to something like this, for me personally, is a little weight gain. But then, how is that worse than if i ate at McDonalds every week?

Im not saying everyone can handle it. Some people get addicted and cause serious problems for themselves and others around them, and they should seek help. I wouldn't venture to say its a vile drink we dont need.

I disagree with people who drink and get drunk and become addicted and blame it on genetics. Without becoming too vulnerable to complete strangers, my father was a violent alcoholic, both my grandfathers were violent alcoholics, yet i feel no fear when drinking that i might become one. I know there are theories that exist that say its genetic, that im predisposed to addiction because of my family. Every person is an individual, with individual thought and individual control over themselves. People should "man-up" so to speak and take responsibility for what they've allowed themselves to become.

Lastly, you say "why can't christians as a whole have an alcohol free social", and im assuming you meant all christians stop drinking.

My question is, Why can't Christians stop being so self rightious with EVERYTHING and calm down and allow themselves the occational beer at a baseball game, or wine with dinner, or night on the town. God won't send us to hell for drinking.

It is true that studies have shown that alcohol can be healthful. However, it is only when taken in very small amounts; 2 drinks for men and 1 drink for women per day. Most people at socials do not limit themselves to those amounts which means that they are NOT getting any health benefits. There are also studies that show that grape juice can provide many of the health benefits that fermented wine provides because the benefits comes from the grape, not the fermentation process. It is for these reasons that we don't need alcohol. There is nothing in the Bible that makes alcohol consumption compulsory.

I belong to a church that teaches total abstinence. Because of that, I can get involved in church socials that do not have alcohol. We are able to have a good time without it. I don't see why other Christians can't do the same thing.

Why create a paridigm like that? What's the point? If some Christians like to drink, let them. If some like to get drunk, let them. If some don't, ok. I will agree, on a very basic level, that we dont need alcohol for our survival. In the hunter/gatherer sense of the word, we dont NEED alcohol. But it isn't a sin.

Many anti-oxidants are created during the fermentation process, more so than just the actual grape, or grape juice. With that sentence i could argue that we do need alcohol.

I say we quit trying to create blanket laws for Christianity, and just stick to the individual. If one can handle it, let him get smashed. If one cant, let him abstain. To each his own. Its just alcohol.

Everything in moderation.

That is about the most unscriptural advice I have seen on these boards. Jesus says there will be no drunkards in heaven. You say "get smashed." Do you not know that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Go "smash" the temple. That is outstandingly brilliant advice.

And that's the final goal isn't it. To get to heaven. How outstandingly selfish.

Do you eat steak? Have you ever had milk? Ever eat chicken? Cheese? Ever drink pop? Eaten candy?

None of those things mentioned above are good for the body in excess. Nothing, is good for the body in excess. So i guess we, as good, God fearing, scripture readin' Christians, should start targeting obese people. Telling them they wont get into heaven either. What about victims of eating disorders? Saying they have to purge, because its in their psychology to do so. "Go 'purge' the temple. that is outstandingly brilliant advice".

Do not dare to judge what i do to my body with the occational drink. Do not dare to think you can judge whether or not people who get drunk will get into heaven. Heaven is the least of my worries.

If you've ever eaten so much you felt stuffed (i.e. thanksgiving), drank so much coffee you feel the effects of caffene, you yourself have damaged "the temple". Nicely done.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Did you see Gluttons anywhere on that list?

I can misquote scripture too. whats your point

How is that scripture misquoted?

Its not in context. Put it into context, otherwise your prostituting the very Book you believe is the Word of God

It is perfectly in context. Please explain how it is out of context.

[hr.jr.]

Which leads me back to what I was saying. If someone wants to thrash their bodies with alcohol and tobacco etc etc, let them. If they are Christian, don't judge them. Its not our place to demand perfection of people. It wouldn't be best if Christians gave it up, you know what that would accomplish? It would only drive Christianity further into insanity in the public eye. Like some think of Zen Monks as crazy for their vow of abstainence. You may or may not care, but what im saying is that it wouldn't show the world that "we're in the world, not of it", it would only show the world that we're weird and take everything (including ourselves) WAY to seriously.

No, people don't drink in moderation according to the definition. But so what. That's not what concerns me. What concerns me is the people who don't drink in moderation and then drive. Or beat their wives, or so on and so forth. It's not a sin to drink. But people should be aware of what they can and cannot handle, and what problems will arise for them individually if they do decide to drink.

We can judge fellow Christians if they do things that are not Biblical. 1 Cor 5:9-13

If Christians abstained from alcohol, there would be a lot less problems in the Christian community concerning alcohol. As to what the public would think, so what? The public already thinks of Christians as "weird" for waiting until marriage to engage in sex, opposing homosexuality, and other politically correct issues.

Christians abstaining from alcohol would show the public that Christians are able to have fun without it. That is a good message to send to the public.

I brought up the official definition of moderation to show that it doesn't take much to go beyond moderation. In other words, you don't have to have several drinks to get there. Why go through all that trouble to just have 1 or 2 alcoholic drinks when you can have several drinks of a non-alcoholic drink without much of a problem?

If society (including the Christian community) is not able to get rid of the massive problems associated with alcohol consumption, then they should get rid of the alcohol. Learn to have fun without it.

Regardless of which version of the bible you read, im pretty sure we dont have the option to judge those, christian or not, who engage in something we see as unbiblical.

Once again, please keep your scripture in context. I could throw single verses at you too "Do not judge lest ye be judged." "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I mean seriously. I think its ok to speak into someones life, and tell them they're making a mistake ONLY if you have that kind of relationship with them, a close friendship, etc. I dont think its ok to just speak your mind whenever someone does something you're not ok with.

It is not unbiblical to drink. Period.

By the way, what is politically correct about voting AGAINST homosexuals having the same benefits as a man and a woman living together? The Church, Christianity as a whole, was seen this way when Ref. I showed up. Even crazier than that, Rudy Guliani, a self professed Christian, supports a women's right to chose abortion and homosexual domestic partnerships.

Not so political-ly correct after all.......

What is the trouble of having 1-2 alcoholic drinks? You say that as if its a lot of work, to take one bottle and pour one drink, when in reality the only drink you dont have to do that with is water, and thats because its on tap.

What problems are there currently in the Christian community involving alcohol? What would removing alcohol from the Christian community fix? The violent drunks, the abusive drunks, the mean drunks, the stupid drunks, would all still be stupid, violent, abusive, and mean without alcohol. You're not going to change someone's personality by getting rid of alcohol.

If YOU have a problem, Jemdude, with drinking, then dont drink. Dont try to pass your judgement on others.

Philippians 4

1Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

2I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

3And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

4Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

5Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Where does getting "smashed" at a social event fit into the instruction of this scripture?

[hr.jr.]

And that's the final goal isn't it. To get to heaven. How outstandingly selfish.

Do you eat steak? Have you ever had milk? Ever eat chicken? Cheese? Ever drink pop? Eaten candy?

None of those things mentioned above are good for the body in excess. Nothing, is good for the body in excess. So i guess we, as good, God fearing, scripture readin' Christians, should start targeting obese people. Telling them they wont get into heaven either. What about victims of eating disorders? Saying they have to purge, because its in their psychology to do so. "Go 'purge' the temple. that is outstandingly brilliant advice".

Do not dare to judge what i do to my body with the occational drink. Do not dare to think you can judge whether or not people who get drunk will get into heaven. Heaven is the least of my worries.

If you've ever eaten so much you felt stuffed (i.e. thanksgiving), drank so much coffee you feel the effects of caffene, you yourself have damaged "the temple". Nicely done.

Food is needed to live. Alcohol is not needed to live. By the way, I don't know the Bible verses off hand, but the Bible does speak out against gluttony.

My point was to expose how ridiculously judgemental and ultimately self rightious hr.jr. was being. It is completely unfair to treat people like that. How "holier than thou".

It is most obvious that you have no clue from a biblical standpoint what self-righteous is. It is perfectly acceptable for a Christian to take a stand against a behavior that is clearly prohibited by scripture. Your pitiful argument that "Everyone else sins also," is of absolutely no relavence. The topic being discussed here is alcohol. Whether gluttony is or is not a sin is 100% irrelavent to the discussion of whether getting "smashed" on alcohol is sin. There are plenty of things that are sin. However, the fact that they are sin does not change the point that "getting smashed" on alcohol is sin. I would go on to question why someone who claims to be a Christian would want to get drunk. When I was lost, I enjoyed getting drunk. Now, the idea is repulsive to me. Any "christian" who enjoys getting drunk, should question their walk with the Lord.

The Holy Spirit said "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

How much more plain can that be?

[hr.jr.]

I agree with the problems in society bit.

Why do you suggest that alcohol is a substance we don't need? Studies have shown that alcohol, taken in moderation, can be good and even healthy. What evidence do you have to say that we shouldn't drink it at all? I do think that drinking with reckless abandon isn't smart. I don't think, however, that getting intoxicated is a sin, or that im more "prone to attack" when i'm intoxicated. I drink occationally and get drunk about half of those times and its always in good fun. No one gets hurt, no one drives, i haven't done anything stupid. Im not always in control, i fall down a lot, but once again, its all in good fun. The only downside i have found to something like this, for me personally, is a little weight gain. But then, how is that worse than if i ate at McDonalds every week?

Im not saying everyone can handle it. Some people get addicted and cause serious problems for themselves and others around them, and they should seek help. I wouldn't venture to say its a vile drink we dont need.

I disagree with people who drink and get drunk and become addicted and blame it on genetics. Without becoming too vulnerable to complete strangers, my father was a violent alcoholic, both my grandfathers were violent alcoholics, yet i feel no fear when drinking that i might become one. I know there are theories that exist that say its genetic, that im predisposed to addiction because of my family. Every person is an individual, with individual thought and individual control over themselves. People should "man-up" so to speak and take responsibility for what they've allowed themselves to become.

Lastly, you say "why can't christians as a whole have an alcohol free social", and im assuming you meant all christians stop drinking.

My question is, Why can't Christians stop being so self rightious with EVERYTHING and calm down and allow themselves the occational beer at a baseball game, or wine with dinner, or night on the town. God won't send us to hell for drinking.

It is true that studies have shown that alcohol can be healthful. However, it is only when taken in very small amounts; 2 drinks for men and 1 drink for women per day. Most people at socials do not limit themselves to those amounts which means that they are NOT getting any health benefits. There are also studies that show that grape juice can provide many of the health benefits that fermented wine provides because the benefits comes from the grape, not the fermentation process. It is for these reasons that we don't need alcohol. There is nothing in the Bible that makes alcohol consumption compulsory.

I belong to a church that teaches total abstinence. Because of that, I can get involved in church socials that do not have alcohol. We are able to have a good time without it. I don't see why other Christians can't do the same thing.

Why create a paridigm like that? What's the point? If some Christians like to drink, let them. If some like to get drunk, let them. If some don't, ok. I will agree, on a very basic level, that we dont need alcohol for our survival. In the hunter/gatherer sense of the word, we dont NEED alcohol. But it isn't a sin.

Many anti-oxidants are created during the fermentation process, more so than just the actual grape, or grape juice. With that sentence i could argue that we do need alcohol.

I say we quit trying to create blanket laws for Christianity, and just stick to the individual. If one can handle it, let him get smashed. If one cant, let him abstain. To each his own. Its just alcohol.

Everything in moderation.

By your logic: If some christians like to commit adultery, Let em. If some like to commit homosexuality, let em. If some like to commit fornication, let em.

[damo1]

damo1

go to the source of gods word allow the holy spirit to bring in truth to what you are reading and then let it sink in me as an alcoholic and an addict in recovery its a simple facts its dangerous for me in most cultures like in Israel and in Jerusalem its accepted

but god is against people being drunk some one said the church has not been able to get this right and i agree with that person the church has blwon it big time wear people should be turning to the church for help and for right answers we send them to goverment rehabs when we can set these people free and we have it in gods word saying we can heal the sick we can cast demons we can even set an alcholic or an addict free

but what do we do we say we cant help you but these people can i went to a salvation army rehab and then to teen challange i am know finaly free as i turned to gods word and trusted what it said in gods word

look at those in government rehabs today spend time talking with an alcoholic and you Will see why its dangerous for these people in recovery

i have said it in this post i think i have if i have not i am against alcohol al together i have seen the damage its done with in the community i live in just like you would have seen the damage done in your country when the natural ancestors of America drink what happens to the Indian people ? of your home land its the same with the right full owners of my land which is australia alcahol was introduced by the first white man and then by the british people who took over this land and took every singl rights of our natural owners of australia and its nearly destroyed the people i have gotten to know and love very much

half aborigonal males and mothers serving time in our jails kids going out with out food and clean clothes i should know wear i help out the youth center feeds these kids and in our town we run breakfast programs i have been in the midle of two big brawls young aborigonal youth and older aborigonal men all due to us hidding behind gods word and not willing to act on what jesus taught his disciples

its the same wear i live with in the aboriginal community's that have been set up in this town wear i am

me and my pastor are on the same wave length and we tell christians if you want to hear it from an aborigonal christians prospective is it ok to drink have a talk with my brothers and sisters and they wil tel you

i am praying that this government of mine in Australia has the guts to shut down every single store and pub and rsl club that sells alcohol that is my hearts desire and i have protested and even written letters my self so i just don't type away in cyber space in the comfort of my own home knowing i can just say anything

its like saying homosexuality is OK it is even OK for Christians to preach behind the pulpit and still be an active homosexual men or active lesbians

you can also say its OK to be a Christian and be a fornicator and so on

the source of gods word is never wrong we are the ones who have gotten it wrong

but i am not pointing the finger at no one i don't play god or hide behind scripture passages and just say thats nice lets throw this out and hide behind this passage

i am even in no right to judge the state of a person or wear they are at in their own walk i leave that to god as only god knows the state of a person and only the holy spirit can convict a person

its like telling a sex offender you can live the Christian life and still commit horrific crimes against young children

when we twist gods word we are going against what the disciples and what the apostles suffered for

Innocent lives have been destroyed because man him self can not handle the truth of what the living word of god says so we just sift what we want to hear and ingnore the hard stuff and stick to the soft stuff

sorry but i stay in the center of things i don't shift to the right or to the left or tap any one on the shoulder i am my own man i know my own flaws and i work on what the holy spirit brings to the surface to be dealt with and when he convicts me of something i nail it to the cross with out arguing

from damo

[Matthitjah]

This thread is now closed.

Please leave the personal attacks out of any furture debates.

Peace,

Dave