Absent from the body...

[Pilgrim7]

Brother,

It is dangerous to make doctrine out of a Parable. A Parable is a story used to illustrate a truth. It is an allegory, not every aspect of which actually happened, but it is to teach a main point. The point being taught here is not that all go immediately to heaven of hell upon death, but to illustrate the difference in the ultimate reward of the saved and lost, and the main point that even if one came back from the dead, they would not believe. I believe Jesus used the name Lazarus because He would raise Lazarus from the dead, and they would not believe, but sought to kill him.

Doctrines are formed by simple, declarative statements of fact, such as the 'wages of sin is/are death', or when a man dies, 'that very day his thoughts perish'. There is no possible symbolism in these plain statements of fact. Parables have much symbolism, and thus must be filtered through these plain, incontrovertible truths.

The taking of the symbolic and making it doctrine is the root of all false doctrine, and is what caused 'Mystery Babylon' to lead the great 'falling away' from truth and the inculcation of Pagan beliefs into the denominated churches of today.

Such is what has happened with passages like Luke 16, where Jesus is try to make a certain point to the Pharisees, that if they believed not writings of Moses, the Scriptures, then they wouldn't believe one who was raised from the dead. We have the same problem today. Just look at the myriad of fables being pushed upon those who are unstable in the faith, most stemming from trying to make the literal symbolic, and the symbolic literal.

Torment can't come before Judgment, for that is not just, and judgment happens at the end. This has been shown very thoroughly. Thus in filtering the parable through the truth, we see that Jesus is definitely talking about a future time of punishment for the wicked, for that is when it takes place. We filter parables and symbolism through plain truth, not plain truth through Parables and symbolism. Doing the latter always leads to false doctrine, and away from truth. This is how the 'mother church' was able to justify the inclusion of all these Pagan beliefs into a 'fallen away' christianity.

As stated before, Pagans have always held that one goes immediately to heaven or hell upon death and that the 'bad people' are tormented forever. Its OK to leave the Pagan doctrines behind. God does not want us teaching people that He is the eternal tormentor. This is not only contrary to the Love of God, but also to the Justice of God.

God is seeking to restore all truth that was lost during the 'falling away' from truth, that had already begun in Paul's day, before Jesus returns.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (the 2nd Coming);

3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

3:21 Whom the heaven must receive (hold, retain) until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

God bless

Dennis

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Dennis,

Actually it doesnt say that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is parable. instead it says there was a certain rich man and there was certain begger

Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

It seems that when a parable is told in the gospels it is pointed out that is is a parable as seen in the following examples.

Matthew 13:3

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Matthew 13:10

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Matthew 13:13

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:18

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:24

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 13:31

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Matthew 13:33

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 13:34

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 13:35

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:36

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matthew 13:53

And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

Matthew 15:15

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Matthew 21:33

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Matthew 21:45

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Matthew 22:1

And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

Matthew 24:32

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mark 3:23

And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 4:2

And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 4:10

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mark 4:11

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 4:13

And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:33

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

Mark 4:34

But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mark 7:17

And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

Mark 12:1

And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

No where does it mention it as being a parable and I believe that Jesus is relating an actual story in the rich man and Lazarus.

God bless

kevin

[Pilgrim7]

JesusisGod2,

Thanks for the reply. What you quote is quite true, Jesus many times prefaced His parables, but certainly not always. I could give as many examples of when He did not.

Now as to the language employed, you wrote:

Actually it doesn't say that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is parable. instead it says there was a certain rich man and there was certain beggar

Here is the definition for the word translated certain in the parable:

G5100 tis tis

an enclitic indefinite pronoun;

• some or any person or object:--a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all),
  

I believe that the term indefinite sheds some light on the fact that it is probably a Parable.

Here is some Scripture that bolsters my belief:

Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not to them:

Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to those that are without, all these things are done in parables:

4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them..............

4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

4:34 But without a parable spoke he not to them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 16 is the last of a series of Parables that Jesus was teaching that day, starting in Luke 14:7:

Lu 14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them........

In Luke 14:8 he uses that same indefinite pronoun in this parable although it is translated correctly, as 'a' man.

Here again in Luke 14:16 He uses the same indefinite pronoun, but it is translated 'certain' again:

Lu 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

I could go on, but for the sake of brevity, believe that there is more that enough evidence to view the 'rich man and Lazarus' as a parable.

Don't be afraid to question 'popular orthodoxy' and man's understanding of the Scriptures, for that can sometimes be the very doorway to truth.

God Bless you,

Dennis

[Massorite]

Brother,It is dangerous to make doctrine out of a Parable.

[Christian]

Prove to me that the Lazarus, Jesus spoke about in the parable is not the very same Lazarus Jesus raised from the grave. We don't know exactly when Jesus spoke the parable. And as I pointed out several times before. Jesus stated that Lazarus was not dead but sleeps. So if Jesus told us that Lazarus was not dead then he wasn't dead. He was doing exactly what Jesus said he was doing. Which was sleeping. So if Jesus told us that Lneitherwas not dead then niether was his braicontradict who are we to controdict the Lamb who is the son of God.

With the Love of Christ

Robert

In all fairness Brother, the same holds true of the reverse of this request. There is no undeniable, unquestionable scripture that is going to prove that this is indeed the same Lazarus that's being spoken of. Other than assumption and coincidence regarding the name of Lazarus, we have no incontrovertible evidence in the scriptures telling us that this is indeed the same man.

Blessings to you Brother,

in Christ,

Christian

[Massorite]

Prove to me that the Lazarus, Jesus spoke about in the parable is not the very same Lazarus Jesus raised from the grave. We don't know exactly when Jesus spoke the parable. And as I pointed out several times before. Jesus stated that Lazarus was not dead but sleeps. So if Jesus told us that Lazarus was not dead then he wasn't dead. He was doing exactly what Jesus said he was doing. Which was sleeping. So if Jesus told us that Lazarus was not dead then neither was his brain. Who are we to contradict the Lamb who is the son of God.

With the Love of Christ

Robert

In all fairness Brother, the same holds true of the reverse of this request. There is no undeniable, unquestionable scripture that is going to prove that this is indeed the same Lazarus that's being spoken of. Other than assumption and coincidence regarding the name of Lazarus, we have no incontrovertible evidence in the scriptures telling us that this is indeed the same man.

Blessings to you Brother,

in Christ,

Christian

Yes that is true. My point in asking for scripture like you said works both ways. To assume that I was assuming that Lazarus in the parable is a real man and accusing me of believing that which will lead me into believing a false doctrine was simply an assumption in and of itself. I asked for the scripture because I knew there was none and I knew there was no way to prove one way or the other. I know that it was a parable and was an example of that which is real but not actually real. The point of the parable is to say that a man who was a righteous man, died and went to rest in the bosom of Abraham and a man who was rich and an unrighteous man, died and went to a place of burning torment. Though Lazarus and the rich man might not be real what happens to the righteous and the unrighteous is real and that is I believe the point of the parable in that when we die we either go to a place of burning torment or we go to rest in Paradise/ bosom of Abraham just as the thief did.

And just as scripture said. The real Lazarus was not dead but was asleep and if the real Lazarus was not dead and only sleeping then his brain was not dead either.

Maybe my logic was not the best here but you know me. Don't try to tell me I am speaking something that is not scriptural unless you have some scripture to prove me wrong.

By the way. I just took delivery of a Geneva Bible which is translated just as it was translated into English and printed in 1599. I have already found some changes that King James made that would change certain scripture meaning or understandings and re-enforce some of my research findings.

Be Blessed

[Pilgrim7]

Brother,

No one has said that this was the same Lazarus. It is a parable, in which the name Lazarus is used. No one has accused you of anything, we are just looking for truth. Now as to Lazarus being dead, Jesus Himself said,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

11:13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

11:14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

I hope this one doesn't disappear.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Torment is the punishment for sin that is handed out at the Judgment, the 'White Throne Judgment', which happens after the 1000 years, when the wicked are resurrected for judgment. This is when the torment begins for all have been judged and their guilt and punishment determined.

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? Have come here to torment us before the time?

The time of torment has been set, it is after the judgment, as justice requires. The cases are all examined and then the torment is administered.

Mt 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due to him.

18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also to you, if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Here the time of torment follows the examination of the Father at the 'White Throne Judgment'.

Thus we have torment following the judgment, which follows the resurrection of the wicked, which follows the 1000 years.

This verse in Peter tells us much of this 'time of torment'.

2pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition (punishment or torment) of ungodly men.

• First: The heavens and earth are reserved for fire, which Scripture calls the 'Lake of Fire'.
  
• Second: This fire is for the 'Day of Judgment'.
  
• Third: This fire, which is reserved for the heavens and earth, is for the punishment of ungodly men, which is determined on the 'Day of Judgment' which precedes the torment of ungodly men.
  

No one will be tormented until the 'time of torment' following the judgment of their case.

God bless,

Dennis

[Massorite]

Brother,

No one has said that this was the same Lazarus. It is a parable, in which the name Lazarus is used. No one has accused you of anything, we are just looking for truth. Now as to Lazarus being dead, Jesus Himself said,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

11:13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

11:14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

I hope this one doesn't disappear.

God Bless,

Dennis

Thank you My friend. We are good. I am going through some real stressful stuff with my 77 year old mother whom my wife and I are trying to take care of. But it is hard to take care of someone who wants to fight you tooth and nail about it and it is even harder when she lives down stairs in a finished basement. She just got back from a 2 month friend visiting and gambling trip. My wife and I took care of her dog and plants while she was gone. We even had to take her dog to the vet. The agreement we had with her was that we would pay $500 a month and all of the utilities. For the past two months she has only payed $300.00 and when she got back she refused to pay any of the house payment. Leaving me stuck with putting out an additional $500 a month. If I had it that would be fine but I work on new houses and you know what is happening there. My mother has a reprobate mind and is going to die that way unless she changes. She has COPD and still smokes up a storm. She can't see and needs an eye operation but she is still driving and I can do nothing to stop her. I am going to start the process to get guardianship but I haven't got the money so I am forced to put it on a credit card. I have got to do something before she has a wreck and hurts or kills herself or someone else. All of this is happening just when I was going to spend the money to get my new book published and marketed.

I guess I have already said to much and I am a little to touchy.

Robert

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Robert,

I empathize with you brother, I am taking care of my dad in a similar situation. It can be very stressful to say the least. I also build houses, although I am taking a breather now as I am fairly busy with him. You have my prayers my friend,

Your Brother in Christ,

Dennis