Absent from the body...

[Mutzrein]

Hi Patricia

Do you think a person would go to heaven before judgment?

Blessings

[Christian]

Forgive me patricia1, I was unaware that there were new posts in my thread. I'll need to check my settings.

Anyway....

Perhaps the word sleep was the only way they were able to explain being gone from the body while still living on...afterall no one actually dies. paul talks about being brought up to the third heaven, being asleep he thinks but not really knowing if he really was.

We ALL die the first death, those in the first resurrection do not die "the second death" (Revelation 20:6). Old Testament Jews were waiting for the Messiah, fully believing that there was no "life" after death without the Messiah coming to take them "at the last day".

Lazarus was aware of where he was but not what was about to happen when Jesus called him forth

If you are referring to the Lazarus story in John 11:1-444, I will add to my point above that Jesus himself says in John 11:14, Lazarus is dead. Also, you have no actual scripture to back your claim that "Lazarus was aware where he was, but not what was about to happen." I believe you are stating your "view" here.

...anybody who has been in the heavens knows that earth is the least on the mind.

Have you personally spoken to anyone who has returned from heaven and heard this from them? Believe me, I know it will be wonderful, but I don't believe you can make statements like this and claim them as "factual" because you "feel" this about it. That is not a scripturally sound statement.

in Christ,

Christian

[Christian]

Hi Christian, I now understand what you're trying to accomplish. To make us aware of how important it is to use scripture based versus to encourage non-believers. Problem is , many non-believers will turn away a the blink of an eye if they think you are trying to quote scripture/verse to them. I believe and use the theory to gain their respect/friendship in hopes that they will view how I live and walk in God's grace as an example of Christ, rather than throwing scripture at them, which usually turns them off. Then much later in our lives I will use scripture when they feel more comfortable with me and my intentions. This is what works in my life.

Blessings

Cajunboy

I believe you misunderstood my intention MeCajunboy. My desire is for brothers and sisters within this thread to use only scripture to support their view/theory, and not for me to find scriptures to use in evangelizing.

I just believe that when asked by the unsaved, or whoever else asks for support of the information you are giving them, clear scriptures on the subject should be given. If they are not clear, unquestionable verses, than one can be accused of twisting them to fit our needs or desires. I'd have to agree with brother Massorite within this thread that proper study of the topic within the scriptures yields no CONCLUSIVE example of 1. Dying then 2. "Waking up" immediately in heaven.

"Absent from the body and present with the Lord" is just as accurately argued by understanding the interpretation of the verse to mean "Don't worry, you will not be a disembodied spirit roaming the Earth when you die, the Lord has account of you".

Blessings to you,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[givennewname]

Dear Brother Christian,

Sorry to have delayed in the reply, but you have mistakenly attributed the post to Bro. Massorite.

There are three distinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last. So you are saying...

1) Death in Christ... go to Paradise (earthly grave, soul awaits Christ in non-"heaven" place)

2) Soul goes to heaven with Christ at the first resurrection

3) Soul returns with Christ for 1000 year reign.

If this is not the sequence you described can you please be more specific about your 1,2,3? listed above in your post

Yes that is the sequence for those who die in faith of the messiah before the death of Christ.

The reason why I believe so is, firstly, the thief who accepts Jesus on the cross was promised to be in paradise the same day that Jesus died.

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

We know Jesus died before sundown day prior to Sabbath and did not ascend to heaven until he was resurrected. Yet Jesus told the thieve he would meet him in Paradise that same day, that he died, so the thief could not have met Jesus in Heaven. Jesus says he will meet him again-meaning there is a concious recognition and not some type of soul sleep-in paradise, which is a garden, not heaven. This paradise is also decribed as part of Jesus's kingdom, as the thieve had recognised Jesus as the Messiah, therefore, it is a place where the righteous in Christ goes.

Where did Jesus goes in the three days that he descended to Hades?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

So from the two verses, it could be that Paradise is the part of Hades where the righteous goes awaiting the advent of Christ.

I also believe that Paradise is now not inhabited, after Jesus had taken the souls there to heaven based on this passage:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Joh 14:4 And whither I go, ye know the way.

Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that Jesus is right now in heaven and not Paradise, And he promises that whoever believes in him, will be reunited with him

New creature

[patricia1]

Hi there I forget that some new people have not caught my previous post. LOL You are talking to someone who was there, more than once. The first time I had recieved no drugs and was dead , had been on a street but dragged to a wooded area and left to die, and You know there is really no such think as death. We cease to reside here but for a moment. We are just visiting here. Death is swallowed up in victory.

Thanatos- This Greek word used here and than translated to death is very decieving.

It simply means seperation, The soul (spirit) from the body(material) The body is what ceases to function and not the soul.

We are born all in the same spiritual condition. Romans 5:12 If you are discussing the sinner they are subject to judgement to Hell. Christians are a different case.

John chapter 5 verse 24

Truly, Truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.

I have direct communication with my Lord Jesus..God my father and am seated in heavenly places with My Lord and King Jesus not because of anything I have done except desire to be that way as well as He My Father in heaven does also.

Jesus said Daddy, daddy why have you forsaken me? He took that seperation that we have mercifullly and graciously not been given to us because of His death. Praise the Lord and thank-you Jesus!!!!

Any other questions? One does not need to believe me. But I died in the e/r also when I was being rushed in.

I am also a nurse and have spoken to a great deal who have visited there. Sincerely and truthfully Patricia C.

[givennewname]

Hi there I forget that some new people have not caught my previous post. LOL You are talking to someone who was there, more than once. The first time I had recieved no drugs and was dead , had been on a street but dragged to a wooded area and left to die, and You know there is really no such think as death. We cease to reside here but for a moment. We are just visiting here. Death is swallowed up in victory.

Thanatos- This Greek word used here and than translated to death is very decieving.

It simply means seperation, The soul (spirit) from the body(material) The body is what ceases to function and not the soul.

We are born all in the same spiritual condition. Romans 5:12 If you are discussing the sinner they are subject to judgement to Hell. Christians are a different case.

John chapter 5 verse 24

Truly, Truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.

I have direct communication with my Lord Jesus..God my father and am seated in heavenly places with My Lord and King Jesus not because of anything I have done except desire to be that way as well as He My Father in heaven does also.

Jesus said Daddy, daddy why have you forsaken me? He took that seperation that we have mercifullly and graciously not been given to us because of His death. Praise the Lord and thank-you Jesus!!!!

Any other questions? One does not need to believe me. But I died in the e/r also when I was being rushed in.

I am also a nurse and have spoken to a great deal who have visited there. Sincerely and truthfully Patricia C.

Dear Sis Patricia,

Greetings in the name of the Lord.

I am rather fascinated that you said ""you have there been there more than once"".

I assume you mean that you have tasted death more than once.

As a matter of curiosity, how did you mean death. Does it mean that the heart has topped beating?? How do you define death? As a clinician, there are various definitions for death and there are the "In between" as in many patients are in the vegetative states, that are being kept alive on ventilators.

How do you reconcile your experience with the statement in the Bible that states that it is appointed unto man to die once. In your case, you seem to have tasted it more than once.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

Would be very interested in your opinion. I had a professor in cardiology who seem to had near death experience several times in which he describe as floating in the room while he waited for his collegues to revive him!

New creature

Edited December 12, 2007 by givennewname

[patricia1]

Many do remain in the room watching what is happening. You are correct there...and if a christian is praying they will hear those prayers as well.

When I first died I was floating above trees...at first I was concerned for the little girl on the ground looking for someone to help her. No one was around...I was already in fetal position and not aware it was me. The love and compassion I felt for this person was beyond description. Because someone had seen be at a particular time as well as a police officer and the next time I was gone. the time was a 30 minute frame. The time going into the hospital was 1.5 hours after.

No in was not so much my heart in was a central nervous system depression due to multiple brain injuries. I was assaulted. I had multiple fractures with convexities as well as loss of blood. Was suppose to cease from existing here and then be a vegetable. was partially paralyzed on my right side.

Had to learn all over again and to look at me you would not know it.

Because of by trip up there I knew He , Jesus, would heal me.

But in the hospital coming into the E/R i was a code after be revived and lost again.

The 2nd time was because my heart stopped and that was 10 years later, a electrical conduction problem which again Jesus healed but until the healing I was on more medication than a 90 year old. That was a short trip and in my home. This time was exactly being present with Jesus within a flash.

The first time also was a flash AFTER I could find no one to help The poor little girl on the ground.

There is more to these experiences.

I did not see a tunnel or a light. I was also where no man should go.

Paul describes being somewhere but he did not know where he was...The third heaven I believe he may said.

No one dies. You keep on going. That terminology is a earthbound word. sincerly Patricia1

Oh and this happened in 1976 and then in 1987. So it really was not a common thing spoken about back then...

[patricia1]

christian ,when in heaven you become so overwhelmed with the father and your surroundings the earth is basically of no importance. This is not a feeling. One will think of those left behind....

As I said the word dead and death means seperation. does not mean not alive as we see it.

I can only explain things the best way I can..this english language is definitly short on words descriptive of such a experience and much is left unsaid because of it.

Being born again means a death as well. I was dead in my sins and now I am not am alive in Christ.

I do agree with it is appointed for all to die once as a scripture...yet there is a mystery here. Enoch and Elijah did not die...that is why many think they will be the two witnesses that will return in revelations. If that scripture is literally taken it blows the raptue out of the water.

So I myself have had difficulty with this scripture.

When Jesus asked peter three times about loving Him, The word Love is put there three times and yet the greek meaning of the word love there changes three times. No one would know unless it is looked up.

You did not mention anything about the scripture i gave you though. patricia1

[givennewname]

christian ,when in heaven you become so overwhelmed with the father and your surroundings the earth is basically of no importance. This is not a feeling. One will think of those left behind....

As I said the word dead and death means seperation. does not mean not alive as we see it.

I can only explain things the best way I can..this english language is definitly short on words descriptive of such a experience and much is left unsaid because of it.

Being born again means a death as well. I was dead in my sins and now I am not am alive in Christ.

I do agree with it is appointed for all to die once as a scripture...yet there is a mystery here. Enoch and Elijah did not die...that is why many think they will be the two witnesses that will return in revelations. If that scripture is literally taken it blows the raptue out of the water.

So I myself have had difficulty with this scripture.

When Jesus asked peter three times about loving Him, The word Love is put there three times and yet the greek meaning of the word love there changes three times. No one would know unless it is looked up.

You did not mention anything about the scripture i gave you though. patricia1

Hi Patricia,

Thank you for the fascinating reply.

I am a medical practitioner and have been to many resuscitation's, some successful some not. I do not have many that have recalled near death experiences apart from the cardiology professor who have died 3 occasions after massive heart attacks who could recall every detail of the resuscitation procedure and proceed to admonish our mistakes after he comes back. We always dread every time we are on call, just frightened that it will be our boss that we had to revive. What fascinates me is that usually the resuscitation succeeds beyond when conventional medical opinion would say that a person is already dead!

We tend to define death as brain death! Some experts have suggested that these experiences are false memories created by the hypoxic brain (Oxygen starved brain). However based on the details provided by my professor, it is anything but the result of a starved brain as the details are usually correct.

I have a few problems with the scripture that I quoted about men being appointed to die once, Well just for the reason that many have died several times, including those brought back to life by Elijah (the widow's son) & Jesus (Peter's Mother in law, Lazarus, the centurion's son, and the 500 who rose after the ressurection). Just simple Mathematics would suggest that they have died twice.

New creature

[patricia1]

I have often wondered why some have experiences and others do not. I had called a code on a young woman who had a subdural hematoma, although pulse was mnimal her eyes were fixed and dilated. After a short time I had left the room. There were enough people there and found it difficult for me emotionally, she was close to my age and despite continual attempts to the neurosurgeon that late evening he responded poorly.

She was rushed to the O/R...They took a chance and she came through the operation. After a long time she ended up on my floor and when she saw me she would not talk to me.

Finally she asked me, "what happened to you in there" and she was referring to her code. She saw everything happening, Could hear my payers for her and even repeated them but couldn't find me. I told her about what i said previously and she smiled. saying" I needed those prayers I guess more than you by my side" I cried. She did get saved.

Little old jewish ladies brought back and had seen Jesus...afraid to say anything and yet talked with me. I felt so priveleged. this was a ministry...I loved to be around the dying and people thought I was morose. LoL

Then there are those who see nothing... maybe God knows even if they saw, they would not believe. It is sad to think that way though. patricia1