rapture i think not

[Isa]

There are many verses to explain the catching away of the church.

1 Cor. 15:51;

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a

moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and

the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 3:13

13 in order to establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our

Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

1Thess. 4:13-18

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

As the verses above point out we are not to suffer wrath but we have found salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. He rescues us from that coming wrath, since we have kept His command to endure patiently and this the faithful church has done since the time it began.

As you will notice in verse 16 of Thess 4 it says the Lord Himself will come down from heaven. This verse is totally different to when He comes at His second coming which is at the end of the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31.

It tells us in Matthew that the Lord comes on the clouds with great power and great glory. Then it says he sends His angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. These are two different times and two different gatherings.

The first gathering is the rapture of the church saints.

The second gathering is the saints from the tribulation and they are gathered together with the raptured saints in heaven. They are the Lord's armies.

Revelation 19:7,8

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

[kari21]

You need to be very careful of what you say kari,the bible clearly states that we will be here for the trib ,until the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.

You might find yourself rejecting the true God of the bible.

The god you're trying to push isn't the God of the Bible so I'm not worried one bit.

[Massorite]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Nov 24 2007, 02:07 PM)

Nonsense. There is a difference between having to deal with the problems and tragedies that come from living in a broken world and undergoing the wrath of God. You are trying to compare two completely dissimilar things. God never promised that would not have trials, hardships and sufferings in this present world. However, it is a challenge to His integrity to claim that He would indiscriminately pour out His wrath on His own children in the same manner He does upon His enemies.

And He never promised that you wont have to go thru tribulations either. He did promise this to a paticular Church...is your portion with them.

Well, there are tribulations and there is THE Tribulation. The point I am making is that you cannot compare the difficulties and problems associated with fallen and broken world to the pouring out of God's wrath. Those are two completely different issues and defy any possible comparison.

QUOTE

There is nothing in the Bible that says a person who is more mature, who has been a Christian longer than someone else is more saved or more qualified to go to heaven. That is just a bunch of nonsense. When Jesus saves you, you are saved to the uttermost

Can you please start reading my words. I never said one is or is not qualified to go to heaven. The rapture is another story.

Where pray tell, do suppose those who are raptured are raptured to? Is there someplace else other than heaven?

I said, once again, you will not be raptured in a state of immaturity. You may say its scriptural, but you have yet to prove it.

I am not the one with the burden of proof on that issue. If you cannot provide a Scripture that states that a certain level of maturity to be in the rapture, then it is scriptural by default. Your the one making the assertion and it is up to either support it or in the absence of needed evidence concede that your position is mistaken.

I say scripture testifies of it, you just have not received the light.

No, I have just not received the Scriptural basis from you that you claim exists. Still waiting....

QUOTE

The word "uttermost" is pantelēs and it means complete or entire. You are 100% saved when you accept Jesus Christ. If a person got saved 5 minutes before the rapture they are just as saved (to the uttermost) as someone who had been saved for 40 years. I defy you to prove otherwise from the Scriptures. Saved is saved is saved.

I agree you are 100% saved, but you are not 100% mature, nor like Christ. You keep assigning the rapture to heaven, and getting saved, yet you provide no substance for such. But then you will put the "onus" on me to "prove" my position.

Well your position carries the burden of proof since you are the one making the allegations. So far, you have provided NO Scripture and so I have no reason to believe that your position is based on Scripture. Once again, if the rapture is not about heaven, then you need to demonstrate WHERE those who are raptured go.

Furthermore, the fact that a person is saved to the uttermost torpedoes any notion that there one must be saved on a certain level of maturity to be raptured. When you are saved, you are saved 100%. Granted, there are maturity levels in a Christian's life, but being raptured is nowhere made conditional upon being at a certain maturity level. That is just nonsense. Once again, it is up to you to demonstrate the strength of your position. I don't have to disprove your assertions if you lack the evidence to support them. Again, If you cannot support your position, it is wrong by default. I simply need you to provide the Scripture that states that the rapture is conditional upon a person's spiritual maturity.

QUOTE

It saddens you that I hold up for the character and integrity of the Lord? Sorry, but I don't compromise on the truth, not one iota. I am not mad, I don't think badly of you, but I disagree with what I see to be patently scriptural position and I am not giving up any ground on this.

This character and integrity is based upon how you feel God should be.

No, it is based upon how God has revealed Himself in His Word. We know His character from how He is revealed in Scripture. I do not impose subjective attributes to God. He reveals His character and integrity in the Scriptures.

You may feel its unscriptural, but that does not make what you say truth.

Again, the scriptural evidence, or lack thereof, to support your position is the plum line. If you cannot provide that, then your position is DOA and my assertion that your position is unscriptural would be correct.

All that stuff about maturity amounts to nothing more then a hill of beans. When the resurrection gets here the mature and the immature will both be in it and when the tribulation gets here both the mature and the immature will be in it.

My question is "What does the wrath of God look like to you". Starting at around 50 years after the death of Christ the early church began to be persecuted and continued to be persecuted for the next 250 years. They were beaten, throne into jail, burned alive, boiled in oil, striped of their skin while alive and awake, fed to wild animals in front of thousands of spectators, crucified, impaled, hanged, and their bodies were used as torches for light at Roman parties. Only God knows how many died in His name. Was that the wrath of God? Or was it a period of tribulation?

Today in 2007 Brothers and Sisters in Christ are being killed simply because they believe in Christ. They believe in the same thing as you and I do. They have receive salvation and because of it they are being tortured, jailed, burned alive, women and young girls are getting acid throne into their faces making them look hideous, their getting their heads cut off and being held over an open flame having the skin on their bellies melt while they watch in an effort to make them denounce Christ and except Islam and their children are being killed before their eyes also. Nobody knows for sure how many die every year but the numbers are up into the hundreds of thousands. So again. Are these Christan's suffering the wrath of God or is it tribulation?

What makes us think that we are so good that we will not have to suffer what our brothers and sisters in Christ are already suffering in other parts of the world who believe in Christ just like we do.

[kari21]

It was selfish. People only getting saved to get out of the tribulation. I felt why would God have us spread His gospel and then leave some lost, to die without His lampstands on the earth. I thought why would any Christian be so selfish, and want to leave at a time such as that?

I want to address those points for anyone who still thinks that way.

First, it's not wrong to run to God to avoid danger, the tribulation, or hell. That's the whole point of salvation - to save us from God's wrath. God just doesn't hate sin - God hates the sinner. And his wrath is directed at those who laugh at the very idea of punishment. Who shake their fists in his face. Who think they'll get to heaven THEIR way. Who even go so far as to deny he even exists so that they can live a guilt free sinful lifestyle.

ONLY those who run to him for mercy and protection will be saved. Through his great love, he is willing to forgive all who will trust in him. And he will spare them the wrath to come.

Second, there will be those who missed their chance to avoid the tribulation, yet will come to trust in Christ after the rapture. Those will be the lampstands on the earth. Plus the 144,000 Jewish converts, and the two witnesses. But, even so, God has limits. Those who willingly take the Mark of the Beast will be damned to hell no matter what they do afterward. Their choice is sealed for eternity.

Third, it is not selfish to want to avoid the most horrible time the earth has ever seen. The same way it is not selfish to want to avoid hell. What is selfish is this yearning to have ones self, and others, go through the tribulation in some strange attempt to "earn" your salvation through suffering. Why anyone would think they are "more" saved than the next guy for going through that horror is beyond me.

God's word makes it VERY clear. ALL who call upon the name of the Lord, and repent, are saved. Period. No jumping through hoops, no flogging yourself, no suffering for the sake of suffering.....just calling upon Christ to save you. He did, and does, all the work......without our help. If we claim we have any other part in our salvation, we are claiming Christ's glory for ourselves.

[Guest shiloh357]

Third, it is not selfish to want to avoid the most horrible time the earth has ever seen. The same way it is not selfish to want to avoid hell. What is selfish is this yearning to have ones self, and others, go through the tribulation in some strange attempt to "earn" your salvation through suffering. Why anyone would think they are "more" saved than the next guy for going through that horror is beyond me.

God's word makes it VERY clear. ALL who call upon the name of the Lord, and repent, are saved. Period. No jumping through hoops, no flogging yourself, no suffering for the sake of suffering.....just calling upon Christ to save you. He did, and does, all the work......without our help. If we claim we have any other part in our salvation, we are claiming Christ's glory for ourselves.

Right on! No one could have said it better!!

[kari21]

What makes us think that we are so good that we will not have to suffer what our brothers and sisters in Christ are already suffering in other parts of the world who believe in Christ just like we do.

It is Christ's goodness that is imparted to us.

What makes you think you have to suffer to be sanctified?

Are you saved at the moment of conversion? Will you remain saved if you don't suffer?

If God wants us to suffer so much, why are we not SEEKING IT OUT? Why not flog ourselves, crawl on broken glass, and burn ourselves to please God? Why not go out and cause the suffering of other believers in Christ to help along their spiritual growth? If suffering is good for our souls, hell would be the most Godly place in the universe!

Heck! Why not go out and dance in the streets that you get to go through the horror of the tribulation! When God said he want's all believers to have life and to have it more abundantly, I guess he meant bamboo shoots under the fingernails, and some cigarette burns to the eyelids.....

[Massorite]

What makes the rapture unbiblical. Pre, mid, or post. I find valid reasons for each. Why do we feel only one is the "correct" one?

Because there is only one of each event not three. And only one is correct. The rest are false teaching and sinful to teach.

[kari21]

if you reject the god that will not rapture you b4 the tribulation then you have indeed rejected the one true God of the bible.

I can just as easily say that if you are espousing a god that will pour out his wrath on the righteous as well as the wicked, you are rejecting the one true God of the Bible.

[OneLight]

From 2 Timothy

But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition

Please, Brother and Sisters, how this discussion is being worded is not how God has instructed us to act. Disagree, but in love. You have chosen to discuss a word that is not in the Bible, even though we all, who are saved, will be caught up when Jesus decides it's time, not us. There can be no "correction" for there is no scripture with the word rapture in it. Being "caught up" is the closest to the word Rapture, but only is used once in the Word, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. As all prophecy, it is an event that has not happened yet and we can only give it our best guess as to the outcome.

I suggest that we hope for pre, but plan for post. What is to come onto this earth will be like nothing that it has even seen before, nor ever will be seen again. Because of this, nobody would ever want to witness it. If it is His decision for us to go through it, remember that we will not feel Gods wrath, which would be a witness to the unsaved.

None the less, what we are doing in this thread is bringing forth what we have concluded as the truth, for nobody can point to scripture and say this is the truth, for the word Rapture is not to be found.

I see too much flesh in this thread ...

In Gods Love,

OneLight

[Guest shiloh357]

It seems to me that you think you will be qualified for the reward at the judgment seat of Christ also. Yes, when you are saved initally, you are saved 100%. But once again you are not 100% mature, nor 100% like Christ. Grow...this is all that we should be concered about.

Phi 3:8 .... I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

We will not EVER in this life be 100% mature or 100% like Christ, so is really not even relevant to the issue of the rapture. In fact, it seems to be a diversion from your inability to support the assertions you have made in the last couple of days or so. Salvation, all of it, is a gift and when a person is saved, they possess all of salvation whether they have been saved for 1 day, or 100 years. A person who gets saved 5 minutes before the rapture will go up with the oldest and most mature Christians in the world and, heretofore, you have provided exactly ZERO biblical evidence to say otherwise.