Calvin vs. Arminius

[allofgrace]

Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. This has the order of regeneration, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. In Him(Jesus) you trusted after you(the lost person) heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and having believed, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is the reason for the gospel, to tell about what God has done in sending His Son to pay the sin debt of all those who believe and receive Him(John 1:12). It is the gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit which quickens the heart of the sinner and convicts them of sin, judgment and righteousness and it is the word of God which gives life in Christ by faith, John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Jesus is the propitation for the believers sin and for the sin of the world. 1John2:1-2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Where does the gospel speak of irresistible grace? It does say except you repent you shall likewise perish. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. It does say in Acts 17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. As John 1:12 Jesus must be received by faith for one to become a child of God.

Edited November 1, 2012 by allofgrace

[He giveth more grace]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

[GoldenEagle]

Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

⁹ “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts.

God's thoughts are pretty awesome and much higher than my thoughts. His ways are much higher than my ways.

So this is just one man's humble opinion. I don't mean to over-simplify this debate but...

Opinion:

Personally, I believe the Bible makes a case for both views. To me, the Bible is not a 50/50 (Calvin and Arminius) proposition. To me it is more of what marriage should be - not a 50/50 proposition but a 100/100 proposition. To me it's more like 100% God's Holy Spirit moving drawing people to God (John 6:44) and 100% Man's responsibility to hear Christ's knocking (Rev. 3:20). I'm not sure how it all works but I trust Him.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev. 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Like I said is this an over-simplification? Perhaps.

[enoob57]

Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

⁹ “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts.

God's thoughts are pretty awesome and much higher than my thoughts. His ways are much higher than my ways.

So this is just one man's humble opinion. I don't mean to over-simplify this debate but...

Opinion:

Personally, I believe the Bible makes a case for both views. To me, the Bible is not a 50/50 (Calvin and Arminius) proposition. To me it is more of what marriage should be - not a 50/50 proposition but a 100/100 proposition. To me it's more like 100% God's Holy Spirit moving drawing people to God (John 6:44) and 100% Man's responsibility to hear Christ's knocking (Rev. 3:20). I'm not sure how it all works but I trust Him.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev. 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Like I said is this an over-simplification? Perhaps.

The ones energized with His Spirit and walk in the Wake of His Presence will wait upon the Lord to put within them

that which they cannot gain themselves.... the logical tension acutally becomes a sense of His Grip upon our being ... Love, Steven

[enoob57]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven

[other one]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven

Casting the first stone is a bit different than listening to him...

[enoob57]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven

Casting the first stone is a bit different than listening to him...

To put it in another way should only the perfect speak... who then would be talking? There is context to

this mans life as coming from an idolatrous church and manipulator of truth... they really were the few, the scattered, the

rejectors of catholic doctrine... it is not surprising to find these inconsistencies? Baby and bath water stuff... Love, Steven

[gdemoss]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven

Casting the first stone is a bit different than listening to him...

To put it in another way should only the perfect speak... who then would be talking? There is context to

this mans life as coming from an idolatrous church and manipulator of truth... they really were the few, the scattered, the

rejectors of catholic doctrine... it is not surprising to find these inconsistencies? Baby and bath water stuff... Love, Steven

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God;

Gary

[larryt]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereign but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now!

But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

The fact that ALL men choose is not the question. It is whether or not the can, are able to choose in the unregenerate man. The Jews were chosen but they still had to choose individually. Only Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land. The rest chose not to believe(Heb. 3:18)

You claim that BOTH are true. All you have to do is show where daisy is true if you can.

LT

Larry I believe the crux of the issue lies in these two understandings:

Ge 3:22-24

22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" —

23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

NKJV

Ro 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one."

NKJV

If we say this was a progression of the leaven of sin so that the beginning statement of God is now null

and void Gen 3:22 then you will have difficulty in two areas:

Ro 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God,

nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the

truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

NKJV

Ro 9:14-18

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared

in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

NKJV

In our reasoning with God (in obedience Isa 1:18-20) We are required to see Him as completely Holy (the complete absence of Sin in any form or exist)

GOD 'IS' HOLINESS

Ps 22:3; Jn 17:11.

In His Being- Isa 57:15; Lk 1:49.

In His Words- Ps 60:6; Jer 23:9, Eph 5:26.

In His Works- Lk 23:34.

In His Kingdom- Ps 47:8.

This is enough for me to resolve my inability to set in the councils of His Sovereignty and mans freedom to choose even in sin....

BUT this much I do know if You put it all upon God then you have God responsible for sin! Allowance is not responsibility for

being! As God has accredited satan for being father of sins!

This is definitely a path as we see, although narrow, has two sides! >God's Sovereignty ^ Man's choice< Love, Steven

Hi Steven,

I have been mulling over the last comment in response to my last post for a while now and I am not really sure about your possition.

To clarify my understanding, I view God as absolutely sovereign and if He decides to save someone they will be saved. His grace is INVINCIBLE (I do not like the term IRRESISTABLE). The natural man WILL NOT choose to be subject to God. He needs grace to be willing to make that choice.

If God does not provide grace to the lost man whoever he may be, he will not choose to be saved. His choice is and always will be to rebell against. God.

The will of natural man is subject to his fallen nature. Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[fixxser]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereign but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now!

But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

The fact that ALL men choose is not the question. It is whether or not the can, are able to choose in the unregenerate man. The Jews were chosen but they still had to choose individually. Only Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land. The rest chose not to believe(Heb. 3:18)

You claim that BOTH are true. All you have to do is show where daisy is true if you can.

LT

Larry I believe the crux of the issue lies in these two understandings:

Ge 3:22-24

22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" —

23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

NKJV

Ro 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one."

NKJV

If we say this was a progression of the leaven of sin so that the beginning statement of God is now null

and void Gen 3:22 then you will have difficulty in two areas:

Ro 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God,

nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to

uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the

truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

NKJV

Ro 9:14-18

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared

in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

NKJV

In our reasoning with God (in obedience Isa 1:18-20) We are required to see Him as completely Holy (the complete absence of Sin in any form or exist)

GOD 'IS' HOLINESS

Ps 22:3; Jn 17:11.

In His Being- Isa 57:15; Lk 1:49.

In His Words- Ps 60:6; Jer 23:9, Eph 5:26.

In His Works- Lk 23:34.

In His Kingdom- Ps 47:8.

This is enough for me to resolve my inability to set in the councils of His Sovereignty and mans freedom to choose even in sin....

BUT this much I do know if You put it all upon God then you have God responsible for sin! Allowance is not responsibility for

being! As God has accredited satan for being father of sins!

This is definitely a path as we see, although narrow, has two sides! >God's Sovereignty ^ Man's choice< Love, Steven

Hi Steven,

I have been mulling over the last comment in response to my last post for a while now and I am not really sure about your possition.

To clarify my understanding, I view God as absolutely sovereign and if He decides to save someone they will be saved. His grace is INVINCIBLE (I do not like the term IRRESISTABLE). The natural man WILL NOT choose to be subject to God. He needs grace to be willing to make that choice.

If God does not provide grace to the lost man whoever he may be, he will not choose to be saved. His choice is and always will be to rebell against. God.

The will of natural man is subject to his fallen nature. Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

My position? Well I am finding it hard to keep up with this debate as I have been under extreme attack since posting. But I wanted to answer this. My position is that I am able to accept the people who believe they made a choice for salvation as well as the people who say they did not feel they had a choice, but were elected. I myself know I was elected, because Christ allowed me to get in a place in life where I had no more choices. For 40 years I believed in the death, resurrection of Christ, and accepted Him in my heart at 8 yrs, but was not saved. I had demon parasites attached onto my soul, which caused a habitual sin for 35 years. And if I were to die in that 40 years I would have gone to hell, I know it. In the last realization of my life, giving up my fate as I was to believe I was born this way, Jesus came to me and said to my heart "I am not going to protect you anymore, I have to have your all." Then I started to see other Christians who made a choice and scripture examples, and parables, and couldn't understand. Where in a secular TV show, it was revealed to me that God is sovereign even over time/space to where, even though we can not comprehend, God can make two different events happen for us at the same time and both are true. Hence, He is able to make two methods of salvation true with one way through Jesus. Question of logic: Does man have free will? Man has limited free will to pick an object off of a table or to leave it on the table, but not both. Does man really have free will? God in spirit and in his kingdom has full free will and is able to do both, for Himself. Not necessarily for any other creature. My point.

(elect) An analogy to my salvation is this: It was like I found myself in a deep river sinking with weights tied to my feet, with only a matter of time to die. I want to live, and in the distance was a cliff the river ran over. Unknown whether the bottom of the cliff was shallow and the waters ankle deep to where I would survive, or very deep, that I could die, if I swam over the cliff. What would any one with thought do? I swam over the cliff not knowing what was behind the proverbial door, but knowing if I stayed I would die. Really? A person wanting to live, and someone telling me I still had a choice. Poppycock! That's stupid. Or, there are those that the life line of Jesus is thrown out to them, and the person sinking does not know if this Person is going to kill them or enslave them for evil once on shore; is that a choice or a chance? The choice to die or the choice to chance. That is illogical. To say, these people still had a choice takes away our soul having the image of God, with worth, value and dignity. The soul is not that stupid or devalued, not to know it is in death's grip.

(choice) Yet, there are those about to step into that deep river of death, and hear the word of God not to step in, and they choose to follow the Word and not step in. If this could be real in our own existence, why not in the spiritual existence?

Two ways in life, but one Person.

Edited November 19, 2012 by fixxser