Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest JAR61]

God is 100% Sovereign..... but John Calvin is not. Did you know that John Calvin had a man murdered for disagreeing with him? Michael Severetus.

So unless you're equating John Calvin with God you might want to rethink your statement Tim....

And if God said... "whosoever" and He is 100% Soveriegn who are you to say the word means anything other than what it does mean?

[EricH]

John 3:16 says... WHOSOEVER.... and does not make the case for Limited Atonement.

I'd like to continue this but it seems that you are trying to construct an erroneous defense using improper Scriptures..... so this is what Im going to do. Im going to give you a list of SCriptures and let you see for yourself how Calvin's Limited Atonement can be challanged.

Now, I can probably better list all the SCriptures that support Calvin's views... I don't want you to use them... I want you to take these Scriptures and use them when discussing Limited Atonement.

John 3.16,  1.29,    2.1,  4.14

I John 2.1-6

Rom: 10.4-21, 11.11-24, 1.18-32, 11.15,  5.8, 5.18

Gal 3.21-22

Heb 2.9, 10.29

Mat. 20.28, 24.14, 28.19, 11.28

ICor8.11

2Pet 2.1,  3.9

Acts 1.8,  17.30

Tit 2.11

Luke 23.34

IJohn 2.2

Isa. 53.6

2Pet 2.1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All that John 3:16 asserts is that whoever comes and believes will be saved. It does not adress how they are enabled to come to that belief. So John 3:16 doesn't prove things one way or another

[Guest JAR61]

Ummm, John 3:16 speaks to Arminian theology not Calvinistic doctrines.

Next... I guess you're ignoring the other dozen and 1/2 other Scriptures I quoted.

Im not going to belabor John 3:16....

Like I said... look up the other Scriptures...

[Joy in the Journey]

*** Edited as I no longer believe the Calvinism is Biblical ***

[EricH]

Ummm, John 3:16 speaks to Arminian theology not Calvinistic doctrines.

Next... I guess you're ignoring the other dozen and 1/2 other Scriptures I quoted.

Im not going to belabor John 3:16....

Like I said... look up the other Scriptures...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scan topic. Most of these have been discussed ad nauseum. There is little value in rehashing it all over again

[Joy in the Journey]

*** Edited as I no longer believe the Calvinism is Biblical ***

[mrs]

45 pages, of people debating, discussing and figuring out what man or Ecf theology to follow.

"solo" scriptura---is the only way---

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ah but see its all about interpretation of said Scripture

[Guest Calamity]

At the moment I'm a mixture of the two...but I'm open minded and willing to be shown if I'm in error....

Here goes....

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

I don't agree with this point. will explain below

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I don't agree with this either. will explain below

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

Or this. will explain below

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

Don't agree with all this either. will explain below

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

I do, however agree with this!

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

I agree with some of this and not others. I do believe that man does have the ability to know good from evil and want to be good when confronted with what is good. I don't believe they have the ability to DO good but I do believe they can want to be good and wish to be saved. I do believe that God gives the gift of faith but not until after repentence - which I believe they can do for themself. I don't believe they are spiritually dead either...but cannot perceive or understand the spirtual things of God very well. However, I do believe they can understand some spiritual things and seek after spiritual fulfillment, maybe not from God (none seek after God) but they seek other means because their spirit is yearning to be fulfilled. That's why we have psychics and stuff, and why man seems to be obsessed and fascinated with spiritual things (witchcraft etc)

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Ok I do believe that we are elected by God's foreknowledge of our choice but I do believe that God gives us the ability to believe, I just believe that we can reject it by our own choice.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

I do believe this.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Yes I agree with this, except I do believe that God gives man the ability to believe but it too can be rejected. This means then that man can be held accountable for resisting the Holy Spirit - blasphemy. God can still be sovreign because in his sovreignity he has given man free will.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

No I don't agree with this. Once you've chosen to give your life to Christ - then that's it...it's his and he regenerates you and you become a new man who desires the things of God - that God, himself put there.

[Work in Progress]

do believe that man does have the ability to know good from evil and want to be good when confronted with what is good. I don't believe they have the ability to DO good but I do believe they can want to be good and wish to be saved.

No point in reposting the numerous Scriptures that teach otherwise I guess, since they have already been posted. But read Romans - every human is born "dead", unable to reach God on his own and lost in his sin. If anything speaks to the depravity of the human state, Romans is it. Paul was clear that there is no inherant "good" in ourselves and we are unable to seek God on our own.

[Guest Calamity]

do believe that man does have the ability to know good from evil and want to be good when confronted with what is good. I don't believe they have the ability to DO good but I do believe they can want to be good and wish to be saved.

No point in reposting the numerous Scriptures that teach otherwise I guess, since they have already been posted. But read Romans - every human is born "dead", unable to reach God on his own and lost in his sin. If anything speaks to the depravity of the human state, Romans is it. Paul was clear that there is no inherant "good" in ourselves and we are unable to seek God on our own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read that passage again. Then please answer this question - How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they are already dead?