Calvin vs. Arminius

[EricH]

The problem with those that hold both the pure Arminian position and the pure Calvinist position is that they are both typically guilty of a logical error known as duality reductionalism. Typically this occurs where there is a paradox (not a contradiction) in scripture. Scripture affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over every thing that occurs (including the process of salvation)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds them morally accountable and that have real consequences

The problem comes when holders of one position or the other raise one of these statements of scripture to the status of prime datum and force the other statement to fit underneath it. Arminian theologians typically do this with the concept of human choice. They make this the prime datum (even though the scriptures do not) and force all passages dealing with sovereignty to fit the prime datum or they are ignored all together (as was the Acts passage folks asked about earlier). Calvinist theologians do the same thing with sovereignty. They raise it up and force passages that describe human choice to fit under the prime datum.

Regarding just the Acts passage (Acts 13:48) I gave the definition of "ordain" from the Greek Lexikon.

Now the word "ordained" can be studied closely in the original language using the Greek NT Lexikon. When you go to http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5021 it defines the Greek Word "tasso" translated as "ordained" as follows:

to put in order, to station

a. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one

b.to appoint, ordain, order

1.to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority

2.to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

The last possible definition is "to appoint mutually". So I do not see how this particular verse can prove either Calvinism or Arminianism on its own if it were the only verse in Scripture.

This tends to be the approach both sides take when confronted with problematic passages. They search for every possible meaining of a key word and find one that will support their system (or at the least explain away the force of what it appears to be saying).

[WayneB]

Let me give y'all an example of what I am talking about. David numbered Israel and as a result Israel was punished by God. Classic Calvinists would say that this falls under God's sovereignty. Classic Arminians would say David made a choice and God reacted to the choice David made. Here is what scripture says:

In 1 Chronicles 21:8 we read that David took direct responsibility for the act:

David said to God, "I have sinned greatly because I have done this thing. Now, because I've been very foolish, please take away your servant's guilt."

(1Chronicles 21:8 HCSB)

This fits nicely in the Arminian framework. David took an action, and God held him responsible (And David did himself)

But then we read regarding this same event:

The LORD's anger burned against Israel again, and it stirred up David against them to say: "Go, count the people of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1 HCSB)

This fits more into the Calvinist understanding of God's being sovereign over everything. He moved on David to number the people so He could judge Israel.

Now we see yet another pespective:

Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to count the people of Israel. (1Chronicles 21:1 HCSB)

Now we see that the direct agent used to incite David was Satan. Are these three perspectives on the same even contradictory? Hardly! We can see that David made a real decision, for which God held him accountable. We also see that David's decision was not made in a vacuum. God's purposes were in play so that the writer could say that it was God who moved David to act the way he did (with out violating David's volition, yet preserving God's absolute sovereignty and purposes in the matter). We also see that the agent God used was Satan (affirming that although God is not the author of evil, He is sovereign over it). Notice David takes personal responsibility for his actions (and God allows him to do so), yet this in no way interferes with God's sovereignty in the matter. Scripture never explains how these three things operated together in the event. It just says that they did.

Great example. ...good teaching.

[turtletwo]

Makes sense. This example brings we humans, the Lord, plus Satan all together in one event! That is one that would never have occured to me until you pointed it out... So EricH, I appreciate you bringing it to our attention. How I praise God for the enlightenment that He brings through His "Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth"! These next remarks are just thoughts that popped into my head and could be offbase. So if I am, I apologize in advance. Because I sure don't want to offend or mislead anyone. But I'm curious if these ideas make sense, in light of all this. And I am putting them out there, just in case they are of any help. And if not, please disregard them. Either way, opinions on them would be welcome...First, the Old Testament. I wonder if Pharoah and his heart hardening would fit in here at all. For there are some verses that specifically say God hardened his heart. Yet there are others that seem to imply that he was a hard hearted man, anyway. Even after the horrid plagues and finally the death of his own son, Pharoah chased down the children of Israel...obviously never having learned his lesson about the power of the one and only true God. This proves he had a wicked heart of ongoing rebellion, yet God used just that to deliver Israel from the Egyptions! Since God is timeless and knows all things, he knew this Pharoah was one to play a role in this monumental deliverence. So did God make him do it or would he have anyhow, being a prime candidate and so abusive by nature? Could it not be both things working together at play here?... And in the New Testament, there was the need of someone to betray Jesus ... in order for Him to die upon the cross (and rise again) on behalf of our sins. God could see into the future and into the heart of this greedy man Judas, who pretended to love the Lord but then sold him out for mere silver! So did God cause Judas to do this act? Or was Judas just the type of man suited for the job, anyway? The two can be compatible and make sense, in my opinion. Well, that is my humble opinion anyway... My examples are not as good as EricH, but if anyone has thoughts on these two persons (Pharoah and Judas), I'd like to hear your input on it. Feel free to correct me, if I need it... God has been showing me that we Christians must all be open to 'constructive criticism' ... as we call it. ( The equivalent of the biblical "speaking the truth in love.")

[rca]

Let me give y'all an example of what I am talking about. David numbered Israel and as a result Israel was punished by God. Classic Calvinists would say that this falls under God's sovereignty. Classic Arminians would say David made a choice and God reacted to the choice David made. Here is what scripture says:

In 1 Chronicles 21:8 we read that David took direct responsibility for the act:

David said to God, "I have sinned greatly because I have done this thing. Now, because I've been very foolish, please take away your servant's guilt."

(1Chronicles 21:8 HCSB)

This fits nicely in the Arminian framework. David took an action, and God held him responsible (And David did himself)

But then we read regarding this same event:

The LORD's anger burned against Israel again, and it stirred up David against them to say: "Go, count the people of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1 HCSB)

This fits more into the Calvinist understanding of God's being sovereign over everything. He moved on David to number the people so He could judge Israel.

Now we see yet another pespective:

Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to count the people of Israel. (1Chronicles 21:1 HCSB)

Now we see that the direct agent used to incite David was Satan. Are these three perspectives on the same even contradictory? Hardly! We can see that David made a real decision, for which God held him accountable. We also see that David's decision was not made in a vacuum. God's purposes were in play so that the writer could say that it was God who moved David to act the way he did (with out violating David's volition, yet preserving God's absolute sovereignty and purposes in the matter). We also see that the agent God used was Satan (affirming that although God is not the author of evil, He is sovereign over it). Notice David takes personal responsibility for his actions (and God allows him to do so), yet this in no way interferes with God's sovereignty in the matter. Scripture never explains how these three things operated together in the event. It just says that they did.

We only see David's census incident from earth's perspective. We have a case with some similarities to this where we also see it from heaven's perspective. I am referring to Job.

What happened to Job can be in some ways attributed to 3 beings. Job was a very righteous man. Even God was impressed with him and God bragged to Satan regarding Job. None of what took place would have happened if Job was a normal typical guy. God bragged to Satan about Job. Job challenged God by claiming he is only so good because he has everything going for him. So Satan challenged God that if he could take away some things of Job he would curse God. God gave permission for Satan to test him.

So one could say that what happened to Job could be attributed to Satan because he tested him. Satan was permitted to decide what to take away from him. Satan was the one taking things away from him.

You could also make the case that what happened to him was attributed to God. God bragged to Satan about Job. Therefore Satan challenged God and God gave Satan the permission and power to take things away from him.

You could also make a case that what happened to Job could be attributed to Job. Job was so righteous that God bragged about him and Satan challenged God. In Job's case he could have kept his health if he would have cursed God early.

In Job 42:11, Job's calamity is attributed to God. This is after it becomes known to Job what really happened. Job's calamity could also have been contributed to Satan.

In Luke 22:31 Satan asked to have Peter that he could sift him as wheat. Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail. So going back to David's case, we do not know all that took place in heaven. However from these passages it is quite reasonable to believe that Satan asked to incite David and God allowed it. This time the reason being for God to allow Satan to incite David is because God was very angry towards Israel.

Now this whole incident is actually quite common. Satan incites or tempts man to do evil on a regular basis. This is not surprising. This is called spiritual warfare. Satan incites us to do evil. However greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4). We can overcome if we turn to God for our strength. Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. [JAM 4:7] This by the way did not work for Job. Sometimes there can be exceptions.

In 2 Samuel 24:1 it says that the Lord stirred up David. In 1 Chronicles 21:1 it says Satan incited David. In the Hebrew both these words are the same. So it seems quite likely that Satan tempted David and God permitted it. 1 Cor. 10:13 says No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. [1CO 10:13]

James 1:13 says that God tempts no man. There are some verses in the Bible that seem to really challenge this.

To incite really means to tempt. Satan was tempting David, a regular occurence for Satan. That is why David takes direct responsibility for his actions. He could have resisted the temptation. David was incited or stirred up to do evil. But he was not forced to or made to do it.

However according to James 1:13 God tempts no man. So God could have merely allowed the temptation. James 4:7 says Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. [JAM 4:7] It may be that in this case God did not take steps to make Satan flee. Regarding 1 Cor 10:13 God may have not made a way of escape since God was looking for a reason to punish Israel. God did not need a reason but He chose to have a specific reason for punishing Israel.

So to conclude. According to James 1:13 God tempts no man. Then according to 1 Cor. 10:13 God does not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able to bear and He makes a way of escape when temptation happens. James 4:7 says that if you submit yourselves to God then the devil will flee. In Job's case this did not happen. So God may have made an exception and not make a way of escape for David or to put it another way God in this case allowed David to be tempted beyond what he was able to bear. The exception was done only because God was looking for a way to punish Israel. He could have just judged Israel but He chose to have David have a choice which punishment to give Israel.

Now you may say that when you start saying that God makes exceptions then you can make the Bible fit any theology you want it to. However Scripture should never contradict Scripture. In Job's case, Job submitted to God and the devil did not flee from him.

[rca]

Jesus taught using parables. They all begin with "The kingdom of God is like ...". There are many parables that show the Arminian viewpoint. Like Matthew 22:1-14 for instance. In that parable all those invited can come to the feast. Many were invited, some came and some refused to come. They had that right or free choice. There was one who came to the wedding but was not wearing wedding clothes. He was cast out into utter darkness. He did not live according to the king's standard on how wedding guests should be dressed. This would mean that he claimed to have faith but had no works or fruit. At the end of the parable Jesus says "Many are called, few are chosen. The Greek word for "chosen" is the same word translated as elected at other places. So everybody was invited or called yet they had free choice whether to come or not. This parable flies against Calvinist theology. I could list many more parables that have an Arminian framework.

My interpretation of this parable is all are called (v. 10), all have free choice to respond to the call. The ones that respond are chosen or elected. Of course I realize that many may not agree on this interpretation. If so then explain how you would interpret this.

Is there anybody that can find one parable that fits the Calvinist framework? Is there any parable where the kingdom of God is like the Calvinist framework?

Edited November 15, 2009 by rca

[Rhonda Lou]

RCA, I'll get back to this, but please read EricH's post about there being both predestination and free will because it sums up what I believe and have tried to state. I'll take points separately, when I have more time, but just wanted you to know that I read your post and will respond.

Rhonda

rca, It is time to get back to you. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but between computer problems and putting dogs to sleep after 12 1/2 years of love (and the resulting emotions), I have not been up to doing much over the Internet other than my blog. Because my post was so long, and your post was also lengthy, I'm not going to quote the whole thing. I have not figured out the quote button yet, so I'll just be copying and pasting. Nor will I be able to answer everything tonight.

For starters, once again I remind you that I do believe in predstination totally and free will totally; I believe that God determines who will and will not be saved. I also believe in free will -- that God wants us to choose Him. I do not find this to be a contradiction. I can't exactly explain it because Scripture never says why God predetermines and acts on our behalf, and yet why He wants us to believe and receive, but I DO believe that this is what the Bible says. The only way I can get my head around it is to say that it is God's perspective and our perspective. God does not choose based on our will because John 1:13 says: that we are born 'NOT of the will of flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." This could not be any clearer. It point blank SAYS that it is not our will, but God's. However, verse 12 says that God gave the right to become children of God to those "who believed in His name." Faith through free will does play a part, but God, through the Holy Spirit point blank says, that we are born NOT of OUR will, but of HIS will. That is not twisting Scripture, that is just repeating what it says, in context.

The next thing that I'd like you to consider is that the Bible should NEVER be read as a Calvinist, nor as an Armenian -- but is to be studied for what it says from a neutral point of view. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. I believed in predestination before I ever heard of Calvin -- simply because the Bible teaches it. So, if possible, try not to think of me as a Calvinist, or guess what I might believe based on what he believed. I am simply trying to explain what I believe the Bible teaches.

To begin with, you state: Can a dead person believe? No, a physical dead person certainly can do absolutely nothing. The Bible uses word pictures. They give pictures of a reality but there is a limit how far you can go with it. God is our Rock. But a rock is a dead material thing. God is certainly not like that. This is your counterpoint to my quoting Colossians 2:13, "and you, being dead in your sins..." What the passage in Colossians 2:13 is stating is that man is SPIRITUALLY dead. DEAD things need life. A physically dead person is physically dead. A spiritual dead person is just as dead spiritually. To prove just how "dead" spiritually this spiritual dead person is, I quoted other passages. Romans 8:6-8 says that those carnally minded are spiritually dead, they are in enmity against God, and CANNOT keep the law. Those who have the Spirt of God in them are Christians and CAN keep the law through Christ. Not only can an unbeliever not keep the law, but they don't even understand spiritual things, indeed CAN NOT know them, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14. According to Romans 3:11-12, no one seeks God, no one understands, all have turned aside. Salvation is impossible for an unbeliever without God opening their eyes to it. I quoted John 6:44, 65 where Jesus says not once but twice, that nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. He must act in our lives before we can come to Him because we are spiritually dead.

I will take up the next point later, but I'd like to close with one final thought. Adam and Eve walked with God and thus were aware of God. They were able to choose, having information to do so. The nation of Israel had God with thim in the desert, in the ark, in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. They had enough information to make a choice. Once God begins to draw us to Himself, we have information about Him and are able to make a choice. Believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they have a new heart and a new spirit, yet this is all contained in flesh - treasures in earthen vessels. We are constantly reminded to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh -- a choice. Unbelievers do not have a choice. They are dead in their sins, they do not seek God -- in fact John 3:19 says they run from God, their mind is incapable of understanding spiritual truths, and their flesh is incapable of choosing God -- until God draws that person to Himself. Therefore, until God begins to work in our lives, there is no choice. Once God works in our lives, there is a choice -- in fact, according to Scripture, there MUST be. The biggest section on predestination in the whole Bible about predestination is Romans 9-11, and right in the middle of that, Paul says, 'If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved" and that "faith comss by hearing" (once God has opened our ears to hear). This is chapter 10:8 and 17, paraphrased by me, with the parentheses added. I never said there was no free will -- I simply said that it did not determine who is and is not saved -- God does that. However, it is a requirement of salvation: we must believe.

Please tell me where I am wrong in the Scriptures I have quoted, keeping in mind that I am not a Calvinist. I will proceed to your other passages if you still want me to, but what else can the Bible mean in the passages I've quoted here?

[rca]

RCA, I'll get back to this, but please read EricH's post about there being both predestination and free will because it sums up what I believe and have tried to state. I'll take points separately, when I have more time, but just wanted you to know that I read your post and will respond.

Rhonda

rca, It is time to get back to you. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but between computer problems and putting dogs to sleep after 12 1/2 years of love (and the resulting emotions), I have not been up to doing much over the Internet other than my blog. Because my post was so long, and your post was also lengthy, I'm not going to quote the whole thing. I have not figured out the quote button yet, so I'll just be copying and pasting. Nor will I be able to answer everything tonight.

For starters, once again I remind you that I do believe in predstination totally and free will totally; I believe that God determines who will and will not be saved. I also believe in free will -- that God wants us to choose Him. I do not find this to be a contradiction. I can't exactly explain it because Scripture never says why God predetermines and acts on our behalf, and yet why He wants us to believe and receive, but I DO believe that this is what the Bible says. The only way I can get my head around it is to say that it is God's perspective and our perspective. God does not choose based on our will because John 1:13 says: that we are born 'NOT of the will of flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."[b/] This could not be any clearer. It point blank SAYS that it is not our will, but God's. However, verse 12 says that God gave the right to become children of God to those "who believed in His name."[b/] Faith through free will does play a part, but God, through the Holy Spirit point blank says, that we are born NOT of OUR will, but of HIS will. That is not twisting Scripture, that is just repeating what it says, in context.

The next thing that I'd like you to consider is that the Bible should NEVER be read as a Calvinist, nor as an Armenian -- but is to be studied for what it says from a neutral point of view. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. I believed in predestination before I ever heard of Calvin -- simply because the Bible teaches it. So, if possible, try not to think of me as a Calvinist, or guess what I might believe based on what he believed. I am simply trying to explain what I believe the Bible teaches.

To begin with, you state: Can a dead person believe? No, a physical dead person certainly can do absolutely nothing. The Bible uses word pictures. They give pictures of a reality but there is a limit how far you can go with it. God is our Rock. But a rock is a dead material thing. God is certainly not like that. [b/] This is your counterpoint to my quoting Colossians 2:13, "and you, being dead in your sins..."[b/] What the passage in Colossians 2:13 is stating is that man is SPIRITUALLY dead. DEAD things need life. A physically dead person is physically dead. A spiritual dead person is just as dead spiritually. To prove just how "dead" spiritually this spiritual dead person is, I quoted other passages. Romans 8:6-8 says that those carnally minded are spiritually dead, they are in enmity against God, and CANNOT keep the law. Those who have the Spirt of God in them are Christians and CAN keep the law through Christ. Not only can an unbeliever not keep the law, but they don't even understand spiritual things, indeed CAN NOT know them, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14. According to Romans 3:11-12, no one seeks God, no one understands, all have turned aside. Salvation is impossible for an unbeliever without God opening their eyes to it. I quoted John 6:44, 65 where Jesus says not once but twice, that nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. He must act in our lives before we can come to Him because we are spiritually dead.

I will take up the next point later, but I'd like to close with one final thought. Adam and Eve walked with God and thus were aware of God. They were able to choose, having information to do so. The nation of Israel had God with thim in the desert, in the ark, in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. They had enough information to make a choice. Once God begins to draw us to Himself, we have information about Him and are able to make a choice. Believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they have a new heart and a new spirit, yet this is all contained in flesh - treasures in earthen vessels. We are constantly reminded to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh -- a choice. Unbelievers do not have a choice. They are dead in their sins, they do not seek God -- in fact John 3:19 says they run from God, their mind is incapable of understanding spiritual truths, and their flesh is incapable of choosing God -- until God draws that person to Himself. Therefore, until God begins to work in our lives, there is no choice. Once God works in our lives, there is a choice -- in fact, according to Scripture, there MUST be. The biggest section on predestination in the whole Bible about predestination is Romans 9-11, and right in the middle of that, Paul says, 'If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved" and that "faith comss by hearing" (once God has opened our ears to hear). This is chapter 10:8 and 17, paraphrased by me, with the parentheses added. I never said there was no free will -- I simply said that it did not determine who is and is not saved -- God does that. However, it is a requirement of salvation: we must believe.

Please tell me where I am wrong in the Scriptures I have quoted, keeping in mind that I am not a Calvinist. I will proceed to your other passages if you still want me to, but what else can the Bible mean in the passages I've quoted here?

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. Hopefully you did not lose important data due to your computer problems.

I too agree that God determines who will and will not be saved. But this is based on our reponse to Him. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). In various ways God speaks to all men hoping that they will respond with repentance. Once they repent then He gladly saves us.

We both have stated our position on John 1:12-13 before. John 1:12 says that all who receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right [or power] to become children of God. This is like an orphan child asking someone that they want to be their father if they can be their father. The child may want that man for his father but that is not up to the child to decide. Ultimately the man must decide if he wants to adapt that child. That is how it is with us. We may want to become a child of God but it is up to God to give us the right to become a child of God. To receive Christ or to believe in His name is to repent. According to 2 Peter 3:9 all that repent, God will want to save them. There are some that claim to receive Christ. They are like the bad soils in Matthew 13. God knows everyone who will believe from the heart. That is what is the basis of His decision in 1:13. God knows if your repentance is genuine, if you truly will do works worthy of repentance. (Matthew 3:7-10).

Concerning can a dead person live. What you hi-lited in bold was my lead up to the whole question. I went on to explain it more fully. I see your take on this issue as:

You are dead. It is impossible to say yes to God. You have the old nature.

God draws you

Once God draws then it is impossible to say no to God. God has given you a new nature.

Some of this I got from other posts that you wrote. Post 916 and 922.

From my reading of Scripture there is John 1:9 "The true light which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. This is the leadup to John 1:12-13 which we have discussed. Meaning that everyone was enlighted by this light. Then there is John 16:8-11 where the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of sin. Then there is Romans 1:18-19 where unrighteous man is without excuse because what can be known about God was made plain to them. Then Romans 2:4 where God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance. Rom 10:18 asks if all have heard and the answer is affirmative. All of the above verses show God's kindness leading to repentance.

Your big trigger for repentance is when God draws you. Some writers use different words to say the same thing. In many ways all the above verses have different ways of saying that God draws. You mentioned 3 times about having enough information to make a choice (Adam & Eve, Israel in the desert). Romans 1:19 says "For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them". In other words they had enough information to make a choice. Jesus enlighten the world (John 1:9) gave them enough information to make a choice. The Holy Spirit convicting gave people enough information to make a choice. All of the above examples were given to the entire world, so they are without excuse.

Then considering John 6:44 which you often quote. You do not quote John 6:45 the following verse. There it says all will be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me [Jesus]. In John 6:45 the same "comes to me" words are there as well. Then John 12:32 Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself.

You also quote John 3:19 but not 3:21. John 3:20-21 show the 2 possible responses to the light the same way as John 1:11-12 show the 2 responses to the light using a different analogy.

Then I would consider Isaiah 5:1-4 another example of God drawing, doing everything possible that Israel would believe. Yet there God failed. So God's drawing is not always sucessful. Why is it not always succesful? It is because free choice is involved. God's part is moving people to come to Him in various ways. But because of free choice it will not always be sucessful.

So strictly from a clear reading of the Bible I would conclude that God uses various ways to draw all men. However because of free choice only some respond.

[Rhonda Lou]

RCA, I'll get back to this, but please read EricH's post about there being both predestination and free will because it sums up what I believe and have tried to state. I'll take points separately, when I have more time, but just wanted you to know that I read your post and will respond.

Rhonda

rca, It is time to get back to you. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but between computer problems and putting dogs to sleep after 12 1/2 years of love (and the resulting emotions), I have not been up to doing much over the Internet other than my blog. Because my post was so long, and your post was also lengthy, I'm not going to quote the whole thing. I have not figured out the quote button yet, so I'll just be copying and pasting. Nor will I be able to answer everything tonight.

For starters, once again I remind you that I do believe in predstination totally and free will totally; I believe that God determines who will and will not be saved. I also believe in free will -- that God wants us to choose Him. I do not find this to be a contradiction. I can't exactly explain it because Scripture never says why God predetermines and acts on our behalf, and yet why He wants us to believe and receive, but I DO believe that this is what the Bible says. The only way I can get my head around it is to say that it is God's perspective and our perspective. God does not choose based on our will because John 1:13 says: that we are born 'NOT of the will of flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."[b/] This could not be any clearer. It point blank SAYS that it is not our will, but God's. However, verse 12 says that God gave the right to become children of God to those "who believed in His name."[b/] Faith through free will does play a part, but God, through the Holy Spirit point blank says, that we are born NOT of OUR will, but of HIS will. That is not twisting Scripture, that is just repeating what it says, in context.

The next thing that I'd like you to consider is that the Bible should NEVER be read as a Calvinist, nor as an Armenian -- but is to be studied for what it says from a neutral point of view. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. I believed in predestination before I ever heard of Calvin -- simply because the Bible teaches it. So, if possible, try not to think of me as a Calvinist, or guess what I might believe based on what he believed. I am simply trying to explain what I believe the Bible teaches.

To begin with, you state: Can a dead person believe? No, a physical dead person certainly can do absolutely nothing. The Bible uses word pictures. They give pictures of a reality but there is a limit how far you can go with it. God is our Rock. But a rock is a dead material thing. God is certainly not like that. [b/] This is your counterpoint to my quoting Colossians 2:13, "and you, being dead in your sins..."[b/] What the passage in Colossians 2:13 is stating is that man is SPIRITUALLY dead. DEAD things need life. A physically dead person is physically dead. A spiritual dead person is just as dead spiritually. To prove just how "dead" spiritually this spiritual dead person is, I quoted other passages. Romans 8:6-8 says that those carnally minded are spiritually dead, they are in enmity against God, and CANNOT keep the law. Those who have the Spirt of God in them are Christians and CAN keep the law through Christ. Not only can an unbeliever not keep the law, but they don't even understand spiritual things, indeed CAN NOT know them, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14. According to Romans 3:11-12, no one seeks God, no one understands, all have turned aside. Salvation is impossible for an unbeliever without God opening their eyes to it. I quoted John 6:44, 65 where Jesus says not once but twice, that nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. He must act in our lives before we can come to Him because we are spiritually dead.

I will take up the next point later, but I'd like to close with one final thought. Adam and Eve walked with God and thus were aware of God. They were able to choose, having information to do so. The nation of Israel had God with thim in the desert, in the ark, in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. They had enough information to make a choice. Once God begins to draw us to Himself, we have information about Him and are able to make a choice. Believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they have a new heart and a new spirit, yet this is all contained in flesh - treasures in earthen vessels. We are constantly reminded to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh -- a choice. Unbelievers do not have a choice. They are dead in their sins, they do not seek God -- in fact John 3:19 says they run from God, their mind is incapable of understanding spiritual truths, and their flesh is incapable of choosing God -- until God draws that person to Himself. Therefore, until God begins to work in our lives, there is no choice. Once God works in our lives, there is a choice -- in fact, according to Scripture, there MUST be. The biggest section on predestination in the whole Bible about predestination is Romans 9-11, and right in the middle of that, Paul says, 'If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved" and that "faith comss by hearing" (once God has opened our ears to hear). This is chapter 10:8 and 17, paraphrased by me, with the parentheses added. I never said there was no free will -- I simply said that it did not determine who is and is not saved -- God does that. However, it is a requirement of salvation: we must believe.

Please tell me where I am wrong in the Scriptures I have quoted, keeping in mind that I am not a Calvinist. I will proceed to your other passages if you still want me to, but what else can the Bible mean in the passages I've quoted here?

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. Hopefully you did not lose important data due to your computer problems.

I too agree that God determines who will and will not be saved. But this is based on our reponse to Him. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). In various ways God speaks to all men hoping that they will respond with repentance. Once they repent then He gladly saves us.

We both have stated our position on John 1:12-13 before. John 1:12 says that all who receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right [or power] to become children of God. This is like an orphan child asking someone that they want to be their father if they can be their father. The child may want that man for his father but that is not up to the child to decide. Ultimately the man must decide if he wants to adapt that child. That is how it is with us. We may want to become a child of God but it is up to God to give us the right to become a child of God. To receive Christ or to believe in His name is to repent. According to 2 Peter 3:9 all that repent, God will want to save them. There are some that claim to receive Christ. They are like the bad soils in Matthew 13. God knows everyone who will believe from the heart. That is what is the basis of His decision in 1:13. God knows if your repentance is genuine, if you truly will do works worthy of repentance. (Matthew 3:7-10).

Concerning can a dead person live. What you hi-lited in bold was my lead up to the whole question. I went on to explain it more fully. I see your take on this issue as:

You are dead. It is impossible to say yes to God. You have the old nature.

God draws you

Once God draws then it is impossible to say no to God. God has given you a new nature.

Some of this I got from other posts that you wrote. Post 916 and 922.

From my reading of Scripture there is John 1:9 "The true light which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. This is the leadup to John 1:12-13 which we have discussed. Meaning that everyone was enlighted by this light. Then there is John 16:8-11 where the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of sin. Then there is Romans 1:18-19 where unrighteous man is without excuse because what can be known about God was made plain to them. Then Romans 2:4 where God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance. Rom 10:18 asks if all have heard and the answer is affirmative. All of the above verses show God's kindness leading to repentance.

Your big trigger for repentance is when God draws you. Some writers use different words to say the same thing. In many ways all the above verses have different ways of saying that God draws. You mentioned 3 times about having enough information to make a choice (Adam & Eve, Israel in the desert). Romans 1:19 says "For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them". In other words they had enough information to make a choice. Jesus enlighten the world (John 1:9) gave them enough information to make a choice. The Holy Spirit convicting gave people enough information to make a choice. All of the above examples were given to the entire world, so they are without excuse.

Then considering John 6:44 which you often quote. You do not quote John 6:45 the following verse. There it says all will be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me [Jesus]. In John 6:45 the same "comes to me" words are there as well. Then John 12:32 Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself.

You also quote John 3:19 but not 3:21. John 3:20-21 show the 2 possible responses to the light the same way as John 1:11-12 show the 2 responses to the light using a different analogy.

Then I would consider Isaiah 5:1-4 another example of God drawing, doing everything possible that Israel would believe. Yet there God failed. So God's drawing is not always sucessful. Why is it not always succesful? It is because free choice is involved. God's part is moving people to come to Him in various ways. But because of free choice it will not always be sucessful.

So strictly from a clear reading of the Bible I would conclude that God uses various ways to draw all men. However because of free choice only some respond.

rca, thanks for your response. On John 1:12-13. I have agreed with you that as many as receive, or believe in God, He gives them the right to become children. I have always agreed that this proves that our will is required. However, verse 13 says that being born of God is NOT our will, NOT the will of the flesh, but of GOD. It does not God's working in our response to Him because the will is not of man, nor of flesh, but of God. Reading the passage in context, that is exactly what it says. You say that because I render this verse this way, I believe:

I am dead -- I still have an old nature. Yes, I believe this.

God draws me. Yes, I believe this.

Once God draws you, it is impossible to say no to God. God has given me a new nature. No. I don't say that.

Once God drawn me, from God's perspective in heaven, I WILL say yes. However, I also have free will. On Earth, I act according to the information I have, and am saved. God has given me enough life by drawing me to allow me to decide for God. In heaven, it is already a done deal. On earth, I still must decide. I do not have a new nature until AFTER I have been saved. The old nature THEN is done away with, but the old man or "flesh" has not been done away with. I have a new mind and a new Spirit, but I still have old flesh.

I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people.

Now, in terms of your "world" verses, John 3:16 does say that God loved "the world" (mankind in general, everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish -- again, as I have stated before, from our perspective, we must believe. However, going back to verse 5-8, we are told that we must be born "of the Spirit" In verse 6, we are told: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Again, we are born of the Spirit. In verse 8, it says, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." We can not tell where the Spirit comes or goes, and the Spirit DOES "come or go" at will -- not OUR will, but God's will. In heaven, where God is, the decision has been made. On earth, we must decide. We both agree with that -- that there are two perspectives: God's and ours. Where we disagree is the order of them. I have shown you how I believe that God decides ahead of us, not on the basis of knowing what we will do. If that were true, we would be sovereign over God, and He would be doing OUR bidding. We don't have the right.

In Exodous 33:19, God says, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." This means that there are some God CHOOSES to be gracious to, and compassionate of. I believe you would say, "Yes, those who God knows will love Him, He chooses to be gracious to." But Romans 9 takes that away. In verse 10-11 state that before Jacob and Esau had done anything, good or evil, God chose Jacob, and it does not say that He chose Jacob based on what Jacob would do, it says that He chose Jacob: "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls." Again, in verse 16, right after Paul quotes Exodus 33:19, he says, "So then it is NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, but OF GOD who shoes mercy." Then, Paul goes on about Pharaoh. Pharaoh, of his own evil heart, went against God -- earth's perspecive -- but in heaven something else had been decided: "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." It does not say that God allowed Pharaoh an evil heart because He knew that Pharaoh had one: it says that God PURPOSED Pharaoh's heart to be evil so that Go'ds may show His power and so that God's name may be declared in all the earth. So, if Pharaoh had no choice, how can he be found guilty of an evil heart? That is the automatic question, and Paul answers that next: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say th him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vesself of wrath, prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory." (Romans 9:20-23) Nowhere here does it say that God is going along with our will -- His will is sovereign.

You mention 2 Peter 3:9 a lot. First of all, reading all of 2 Peter 3, we see that Peter is writing to the church; we know this because He calls them "beloved". Those scoffing Jesus' return are in the church. However, Peter's point is that God is withholding judgment from the world (enduring with longsuffering the vessels of wrath) until all of the believers have been called and are saved. This is the only way this passage may be understood in the light of every other Scripture in the Bible.

As to how God can select chosen ones, and still not want everybody to suffer, I look at it like this: I wanted to retire, but it required that I pay off my pre-paid funeral, or I would not have the money to retire. That cost $500 per month. There were times I wanted to pay much less -- I had no agreement with anybody that I would pay $500, that was WAY over the minimum, but in order to retire I had to pay it off, even though I didn't want to. I was not willing to, yet for the larger picture, i did it. God is not willing to let any suffer. But for the sake of His glory, and for the sake of His purposes, He does. He gives everybody an opportunity to select Him -- but He only chooses certain ones -- vessels of mercy. He chose Jacob over Esau, Isaac over Ismael, Israel over other nations, He kills and makes whole, He hardens hearts, and according to Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:14-15 and John 12:40, He makes hearts dull, ears heavy, and shuts eyes. God is sovereign.

This would make Him a mean God except for the fact that God is love (1 John 4:8) and God works all things to the good of those who love him, to those who are THE called, according to HIS purpose (Romans 8:28). God does not make any decision out of meanness because He is love and wants only our good. Also, God has given the earth, earth's perspective -- meaning that although He has already pre-determined who will be saved -- not based on anything we've done or that He will know what happens -- He requires that we freely choose it. Some will be unable to choose it because they are not chosen -- but the evidence is there for them. Others will choose it -- but it is not theirs until they DO choose it.

This is how our life works. God tells us to love everybody: feed the poor, help widows and orphans, love our neighbor as ourself. This covers "the world" -- it is general, meaning all mankind. We are to love EVERYBODY!! But, are there not degrees of love? We would both agree that we love friends and families -- and provide more for them, meeting even more of their needs -- than we do for somebody we have never, ever met. How can we be so cruel as to love some more than others, even though we love all? Why can't we give God the same option?

Finally, God's wrath is not against any individual, it is against SIN. There are "vessels" of wrath -- but He is not angry at the vessel, only the wrath inside that vessel. Ephesians 5:3-8 actually says that fornication, uncleanness, covetous, should not be named among saints, nor foolish talking..., that no one who practices this is fit for the kingdom of heaven, "because of thse things (not people, but THINGS -- the list itself) the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, not because of the "sons" but because of what is IN the "sons". And He goes on to say that is what some of them WERE, but now they are saved. The wages of SIN (not sinners) is death -- but since sin resides in sinners, the sinners need to repent of the sin in them. God allows free choice, but His pre-determination in heaven has already been made. Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin in every single person -- for the SIN, the wages of SIN is death -- that those who forsake their sin nature may have God's nature inside them.

Once again, I have never, nor will you catch me EVER, deny man't will. I just put God's first -- He pre-determines, and then acts in our life, to bring about salvation -- a salvation we must freely accept. It is not an illusion: it is God's perspective and our perspective.

Please forgive any mistakes, I'm out of time to proof.

[Rhonda Lou]

rca,

I'm sorry, but I thought of a couple of things I'd like to clarify. First of all, thank you for your sympathies in connection with Buff (who had cancer) and Ming (who had a stroke). The medicine which was to aid in their pain-free, alertness was no longer working. That was the reason we had to put them to sleep, and I miss them terribly. Thanks again for your sympathy.

I stated in my last post that God was wratfhul at sin, which resides in sinners. The penalty for sin, which resides in sinners, is death. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, which resides in sinners, and according to Romans 8:19-20, even in creation itself. So there is an aspect which covers "the world" "all mankind", etc. I am not denying that, it is Scriptural. However, I'm afraid I made it too impersonal -- each person is still responsible for their own actions - the sin inside them. I wanted to clarify that. The wages of sin (general sin) is death, and each person must pay that penalty spiritually as Jesus paid it physically on the cross.

Finally, I understand that the concept of God's perspective and our perspective (God chooses, and acts, not based on our will -- and yet we must choose) sounds contradictory or illusory, and that is why we are having this conversation. It does not make sense from a human reasoning point of view. Yet, I liken it to the fact that Jesus is and always has been the Second Person of God -- the Word was with God and the Word was God -- but He is also human -- the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He is fully God, forgiving sins, performing miracles, dying and being raised from the dead, though John 10:17 says that Jesus picks up His life again; other verses say that the Father raised Him from the dead. Both are true. Yet, He also bled, got hungry, and got tired. He was human. He is fully God and fully man. Does that make sense? No. Yet, are both true? Yes.

That is really all that I'm saying. When I read passages, I see where they fit in chronology, or whatever. When you quote a passage which states that Jesus died for everybody -- I agree with that in that Christ died to pay the penalty for sin which resides in everybody. When you quote a passage which says that we must choose God, I agree with that from the human/earthly perspective. When you say that God is not willing that any should suffer, I agree with that in that His momentary will is that none should suffer, but His larger goal is to deal with the sin problem, and have His glory known. When you say whoever believes in God shall be saved, I agree with that, because God graciously gives us free will. When you say that God is sovereign, I agree with that. When you say that God chooses us because He knows who will believe in Him, I believe that, although God knows who will be saved -- that is not the reasons for His choice based on passages I've already shared with you. I am not disqualifying any passage of Scripture: not Romans 9:10-23, NOR 2 Peter 3:9 -- not John 1:12 nor John 1:13 -- not passages which say that God first draws us, nor passages which say that God accepts all who believe. They are all in the Scriptures, and all are true. So, please do not think that I believe some over others; I believe them all. Human reasoning can't explain it any more than human reasoning can explain how Jesus could be fully God, yet fully man. That is why after Paul declared God's election in Romans 9-11 -- and included free will in Romans 10:8-12; 17), Paul says at the very end: "OH, THE DEPTH OF THE RICHES BOTH OF THE WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE OF GOD! HOW UNSEARCHABLE ARE HIS JUDGMENTS AND HIS WAYS PAST FINDING OUT." (Romans 11:33)

I'll answer any questions you might have about this, but I have basically stated my case, and now I leave it in God's hands and in your hands. To God be the glory!! Thanks for listening.

[rca]

rca, thanks for your response. On John 1:12-13. I have agreed with you that as many as receive, or believe in God, He gives them the right to become children. I have always agreed that this proves that our will is required. However, verse 13 says that being born of God is NOT our will, NOT the will of the flesh, but of GOD. It does not God's working in our response to Him because the will is not of man, nor of flesh, but of God. Reading the passage in context, that is exactly what it says. You say that because I render this verse this way, I believe:

I am dead -- I still have an old nature. Yes, I believe this.

God draws me. Yes, I believe this.

Once God draws you, it is impossible to say no to God. God has given me a new nature. No. I don't say that.

Once God drawn me, from God's perspective in heaven, I WILL say yes. However, I also have free will. On Earth, I act according to the information I have, and am saved. God has given me enough life by drawing me to allow me to decide for God. In heaven, it is already a done deal. On earth, I still must decide. I do not have a new nature until AFTER I have been saved. The old nature THEN is done away with, but the old man or "flesh" has not been done away with. I have a new mind and a new Spirit, but I still have old flesh.

I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people.

Now, in terms of your "world" verses, John 3:16 does say that God loved "the world" (mankind in general, everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish -- again, as I have stated before, from our perspective, we must believe. However, going back to verse 5-8, we are told that we must be born "of the Spirit" In verse 6, we are told: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Again, we are born of the Spirit. In verse 8, it says, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." We can not tell where the Spirit comes or goes, and the Spirit DOES "come or go" at will -- not OUR will, but God's will. In heaven, where God is, the decision has been made. On earth, we must decide. We both agree with that -- that there are two perspectives: God's and ours. Where we disagree is the order of them. I have shown you how I believe that God decides ahead of us, not on the basis of knowing what we will do. If that were true, we would be sovereign over God, and He would be doing OUR bidding. We don't have the right.

In Exodous 33:19, God says, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." This means that there are some God CHOOSES to be gracious to, and compassionate of. I believe you would say, "Yes, those who God knows will love Him, He chooses to be gracious to." But Romans 9 takes that away. In verse 10-11 state that before Jacob and Esau had done anything, good or evil, God chose Jacob, and it does not say that He chose Jacob based on what Jacob would do, it says that He chose Jacob: "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls." Again, in verse 16, right after Paul quotes Exodus 33:19, he says, "So then it is NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, but OF GOD who shoes mercy." Then, Paul goes on about Pharaoh. Pharaoh, of his own evil heart, went against God -- earth's perspecive -- but in heaven something else had been decided: "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." It does not say that God allowed Pharaoh an evil heart because He knew that Pharaoh had one: it says that God PURPOSED Pharaoh's heart to be evil so that Go'ds may show His power and so that God's name may be declared in all the earth. So, if Pharaoh had no choice, how can he be found guilty of an evil heart? That is the automatic question, and Paul answers that next: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say th him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vesself of wrath, prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory." (Romans 9:20-23) Nowhere here does it say that God is going along with our will -- His will is sovereign.

You mention 2 Peter 3:9 a lot. First of all, reading all of 2 Peter 3, we see that Peter is writing to the church; we know this because He calls them "beloved". Those scoffing Jesus' return are in the church. However, Peter's point is that God is withholding judgment from the world (enduring with longsuffering the vessels of wrath) until all of the believers have been called and are saved. This is the only way this passage may be understood in the light of every other Scripture in the Bible.

As to how God can select chosen ones, and still not want everybody to suffer, I look at it like this: I wanted to retire, but it required that I pay off my pre-paid funeral, or I would not have the money to retire. That cost $500 per month. There were times I wanted to pay much less -- I had no agreement with anybody that I would pay $500, that was WAY over the minimum, but in order to retire I had to pay it off, even though I didn't want to. I was not willing to, yet for the larger picture, i did it. God is not willing to let any suffer. But for the sake of His glory, and for the sake of His purposes, He does. He gives everybody an opportunity to select Him -- but He only chooses certain ones -- vessels of mercy. He chose Jacob over Esau, Isaac over Ismael, Israel over other nations, He kills and makes whole, He hardens hearts, and according to Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:14-15 and John 12:40, He makes hearts dull, ears heavy, and shuts eyes. God is sovereign.

This would make Him a mean God except for the fact that God is love (1 John 4:8) and God works all things to the good of those who love him, to those who are THE called, according to HIS purpose (Romans 8:28). God does not make any decision out of meanness because He is love and wants only our good. Also, God has given the earth, earth's perspective -- meaning that although He has already pre-determined who will be saved -- not based on anything we've done or that He will know what happens -- He requires that we freely choose it. Some will be unable to choose it because they are not chosen -- but the evidence is there for them. Others will choose it -- but it is not theirs until they DO choose it.

This is how our life works. God tells us to love everybody: feed the poor, help widows and orphans, love our neighbor as ourself. This covers "the world" -- it is general, meaning all mankind. We are to love EVERYBODY!! But, are there not degrees of love? We would both agree that we love friends and families -- and provide more for them, meeting even more of their needs -- than we do for somebody we have never, ever met. How can we be so cruel as to love some more than others, even though we love all? Why can't we give God the same option?

Finally, God's wrath is not against any individual, it is against SIN. There are "vessels" of wrath -- but He is not angry at the vessel, only the wrath inside that vessel. Ephesians 5:3-8 actually says that fornication, uncleanness, covetous, should not be named among saints, nor foolish talking..., that no one who practices this is fit for the kingdom of heaven, "because of thse things (not people, but THINGS -- the list itself) the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, not because of the "sons" but because of what is IN the "sons". And He goes on to say that is what some of them WERE, but now they are saved. The wages of SIN (not sinners) is death -- but since sin resides in sinners, the sinners need to repent of the sin in them. God allows free choice, but His pre-determination in heaven has already been made. Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin in every single person -- for the SIN, the wages of SIN is death -- that those who forsake their sin nature may have God's nature inside them.

Once again, I have never, nor will you catch me EVER, deny man't will. I just put God's first -- He pre-determines, and then acts in our life, to bring about salvation -- a salvation we must freely accept. It is not an illusion: it is God's perspective and our perspective.

Please forgive any mistakes, I'm out of time to proof.

I want to make absolutely sure I understand what you believe before commenting any further.

You gave me a website http://www.predestinarian.net/library/showentry.php?e=34 I would take it that you support what this website says. This website talks about supralapsarianism. I would describe this as decreeism. Much easier to remember. The website basically says that every single event in human history was decreed by God. This would include things like deciding which sock to put on first. And it also would include all the evil events in human history.

When it comes to faith (the trigger for salvation) you seem to be saying that God makes the decision first that you will believe. When He decides that it is time for you to believe, then He draws you. Then it is up to you to decide. However if I hear you correctly, you are saying that since God already decided that you will believe then you will believe. You still have to decide but since God already said that you will decide yes to God, then it would be impossible for you to say no. So basically in your perspective you still decide, but you will only decide what God has decided that you will decide.

Then you say that according to Romans 1:19-20 nobody will be without excuse on judgment day because everybody had the facts about God. So there will be some that had the facts about God and are without excuse. Yet God did not open up their blinders and draw them so they are unable to believe. So they are unable to believe but without excuse for not believing. That makes no sense to me. How could they be without excuse for not believing when they were unable to believe? What use is it to have the facts about God but still being unable to believe?

So I want to know if you believe that all events in human history were ordained by God. That there is nothing that happens without God ordaining it first.

Then regarding the biggest decision anyone can make (to believe in God by faith which gives you salvation). That God decides if and when you will believe. You still decide but the decision has already been made in heaven and you can only decide what was decided in heaven.

If God makes your salvation decision for you then to be consistent, He would have to premake every decision you do. From your perspective on earth it appears to be that you are making all your decisions but in reality they were already made in heaven by God and you will only decide what God had decided that you will do.

You say In heaven, where God is, the decision has been made. On earth, we must decide. We both agree with that -- that there are two perspectives: God's and ours. Where we disagree is the order of them. I have shown you how I believe that God decides ahead of us, not on the basis of knowing what we will do. If that were true, we would be sovereign over God, and He would be doing OUR bidding. We don't have the right.

If this is true then you cannot say that you have free choice. You only would have preprogrammed choice. Yet in your 3rd paragraph you say that you have free will. You say Once God drawn me, from God's perspective in heaven, I WILL say yes. However, I also have free will. How can you have free will if you can only decide what God has already decided you will decide?

Please let me know if I am properly understanding what you believe. Then I can continue our discussion.

Edited November 19, 2009 by rca