Calvin vs. Arminius

[kross]

Colossians 2:13a says, "And you, being dead in your trespasses..." How can a dead person believe? "A person in the flesh cannot perceive God: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed CAN BE." (Romans 6:8) "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) How can one who CANNNOT understand the things of God be saved? Romans 3:11-12 and 23 says, "11No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God, 12All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!...23Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives

[Rhonda Lou]

rca,

It just dawned on me that I did not speak to your final passage of Hebrews 3, about the Jews not entering God's rest. I sort of started, by stating that in the Old Testament, they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They had God's presence, and saw Him in action, but when He was not visible at the moment, oftentimes they began to complain and doubt. Believers have the Holy Spirit inside them all the time, and that does not occur now. In the case of Hebrews 3, this is referencing people from the Old Testament that had the presence of God, yet chose not to believe in Him. He said, "As I swore in My wrath; they shall not enter My rest." (v. 11) This indicates that they never truly believed in their hearts, and were never saved. The people the author of Hebrews was speaking to were in the same boat -- giving intellectual assent to God, but in danger of not believing Him in their hearts. Christians Have entered God's rest. Jesus says that we are to come to Him, enter His rest, take His yoke upon us, and let Him give us rest. (Matthew 11:28-30) Those depending on the Holy Spirit's power for victory, and having faith in God from their hearts -- they have entered God's rest. As for the hardened hearts, I believe that I have addressed this before in stating that the Bible teaches both that God hardens hearts, and that our hearts are hardened by our choices. OK, now, I think I've covered everything. God's peace to you.

Rhonda

[rca]

rca,

One final post. It is taking way too much time from other ministerial efforts, and I'm beginning to feel childishly stubborn. I pray, as ever, that God writes this through me, and that it is lovingly gentle.

From reading your post, I believe the new things you've brought up are a belief that the Prodigal Son parable speaks to free will over God's sovereignty, and that 2:14 is speaking about new believers or babes since Paul is speaking to Christian infants in 1 Corinthians 3:1.

THE PRODIGAL SON

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Prodigal Son to Pharisees and Scribes, who were being snobbish for keeping the law. A parable is a story from one's own experience meant to make a moral point. They could relate to a human father with two sons, the eldest being obedient to the law, but sinful in his heart in that he is unable to forgive the younger, unlawful son, who has repented. The human father forgave the sinful son. That is the context. Now, about this story, I believe that you are thinking that the youngest son lost his salvation. He did lose his inheritance, or reward in the family, but he remained the human father's son in good and evil times. I liken this moral or spiritual principle to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass.

Another point that you made about this parable is that the father showed emotions -- waiting for the son to return -- without affecting what the son did. I never said that God does not show emotions. I have already quoted 1 Samuel 24:1, where God is angry. Ephesians 4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." God can be grieved by our behavior, yet the Holy Spirit is still His promise of our future salvation at the day of glory. However, God will and must do what He says, even if He is hurt emotionally through it. This passage never says otherwise.

There is one distinction between this parable and God. This father was human, and therefore powerless to effect the life of his son. God is all powerful and is able to effect the lives of His children. We read in Philippians 1:6, for instance that He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion. We read in 1 Corinthians 8 that Jesus "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." We read in Jude 24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

This does not exempt moral responsibility. I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God. As I have stated before, Jude 20 says that we are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith. The best example of this can be found in Philippians 2:12-13, and I'll quote it from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him." All of these passages speak to God's power in our lives, making us holy and blameless -- and it all happens much faster if we cooperate with God, something any true Christian will do. The human father in the parable of the prodigal son had no power to help his son return to him. Therefore, he looked daily for his son to return.

Rhonda Lou

I thank you very much for all what you brought up and responses to me. However this is a forum

and you are never under any obligation to write. Neither can you stop someone else from writing. And since there are 2 opposing views in this topic, you can always expect things to be written that you do not agree with. You brought up many passages on your own and I want to use this forum to discuss them so people can see both sides of that passage.

I too have time challenges and there are passages that have been brought up and that I still want to discuss. Therere also main passages that people with God choosing beliefs like to use (Romans 9-11; Ephesians 1). Also in the last post you have had some misunderstandings about what I have said. Kross attacked me personally rather than keeping to the issue of what he or she disagrees with.

I will copy and paste from some posts to keep it close to the discussion so there is no confusion on who said waht.

This I, rca wrote on post 989.

How can a dead person believe?

In the prodigal son parable the son was dead (Luke 15:24,32). He finally came to himself or his senses (15:17). The father never pushed him into this decision, he decided on his own that he needed to return to his father and repent. What helped him come to his senses was that he finally realized living according to the father's ways is better than the pleasures of sin.

This Rhonda Lou wrote in post 990.

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Prodigal Son to Pharisees and Scribes, who were being snobbish for keeping the law. A parable is a story from one's own experience meant to make a moral point. They could relate to a human father with two sons, the eldest being obedient to the law, but sinful in his heart in that he is unable to forgive the younger, unlawful son, who has repented. The human father forgave the sinful son. That is the context. Now, about this story, I believe that you are thinking that the youngest son lost his salvation. He did lose his inheritance, or reward in the family, but he remained the human father's son in good and evil times. I liken this moral or spiritual principle to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass.

The only reason why I mentioned the prodigal son passage was to respond to this quote from Rhonda Lou in post 951.

Colossians 2:13a says, "And you, being dead in your trespasses..." How can a dead person

believe?" End of her quote.

Luke 15:24 says for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry. Luke 15:32 also repeats most of this.

Rhonda Lou asked the question "How can a dead person believe?" and here is a passage about a son that was dead now believing. In Luke 15:17 it says that he (the prodigal son) came to himself. That was the moment he changed from being dead to being alive. I believe that the father in this parable represents God. The father never tried to stop him from leaving nor did he send servants out to try to get him to return. Rhonda Lou has often said that nobody chooses God that is not drawn by God first and God does not draw every person. I believe that God draws all people (John 12:32). This passage was meant to show that there was no hint of a special drawing here. He just came to his senses.

It is interesting that Rhonda Lou answered her own question here "How can a dead person believe?". In her quote above about this passage she says "The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass." So if I understand her right she is saying that the dead son remained a believer (saved) throughout the parable. The dead son was a believer. I believe that when the Scripture calls someone living as dead that means he is spiritually dead or unsaved. I see this "you cannot lose your salvation once you have it" idea as what can easy lead to fatalism for some.

Rhonda Lou mentions 1 Cor. 3:10-15 as her support for her view. I would say that 3:1-5 is talking about the carnality of these newborn believers in that one says he follows Paul, the other says he follows Apollos. None of those were saying that they are following Jesus. IN 3:6 Paul says "I planted, Apollos watered and God gave the increase". 3:8 says "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.". It is in reference to this that the works of 3:10-15 are referring to. Paul and Apollos are teachers. Then 3:9 says that we (teachers) are God's field, God's building. Field and Building mean the same thing here. They are word pictures of teachers of God. The God's field anology is in 3:6-9.

3:10-15 uses the building anaology. A building has to have a foundation. Paul is the skilled master builder of 3:10. Jesus is the foundation. We are all the someone else building on it (3:10). Paul, being an apostle has been chosen by God to write a lot of Scripture concerning the teachings of God. We as commentators or interpreters of Scripture are adding on to Paul's work and ultimately Christ's work. So 3:10-15 is talking about the judgment of teachers. James 3:1 says that teachers will be judged with greater strictness. So 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is saying that we are teachers. Our works (or teachings) will be tested by fire. As long as your work or teaching is based on the foundation (Christ) you, the teacher will still have salvation even if your teachings were not completely true.

And that goes for this topic. Let God be the judge who of us is bulding with gold, silver, precious stones (things that endure the test of fire) and who is building with wood, hay and straw (things that do not endure fire).

Since the last point of the TULIP is Perseverance of the saints I will just say quickly that I believe that you can lose your salvation. At least from our perspective. God knows who will endure to the end so He does not get fooled by a temporary belief. Some Scripture to support this is Matthew 13 (the soils parable), 2 Peter 2:22 says "a dog returns to it own vomit", 1 Corinthians 15:2, 1 Timothy 1:19,20. To discuss this issue at length would be beyond this topic. A "Can you lose your salvation?" topic would be more appropriate to discuss this topic at length.

Rhonda Lou also said in her post 990 regarding the prodigal son:

Another point that you made about this parable is that the father showed emotions -- waiting for the son to return -- without affecting what the son did. I never said that God does not show emotions. I have already quoted 1 Samuel 24:1, where God is angry. Ephesians 4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." God can be grieved by our behavior, yet the Holy Spirit is still His promise of our future salvation at the day of glory. However, God will and must do what He says, even if He is hurt emotionally through it. This passage never says otherwise.

If you read my brief quote at the top of this page of the prodigal son, I did not mention there anything about emotions. Of course I fully agree with you that the father indeed did show emotions.

Now I will quote Rhonda Lou's final comment in post 990 regarding the prodigal son;

There is one distinction between this parable and God. This father was human, and therefore powerless to effect the life of his son. God is all powerful and is able to effect the lives of His children. We read in Philippians 1:6, for instance that He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion. We read in 1 Corinthians 8 that Jesus "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." We read in Jude 24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."This does not exempt moral responsibility. I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God. As I have stated before, Jude 20 says that we are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith. The best example of this can be found in Philippians 2:12-13, and I'll quote it from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him." All of these passages speak to God's power in our lives, making us holy and blameless -- and it all happens much faster if we cooperate with God, something any true Christian will do. The human father in the parable of the prodigal son had no power to help his son return to him. Therefore, he looked daily for his son to return.

As mentioned earlier, I believe that the father is this parable represents God. I agree with Rhonda Lou that good moral living requires co-operation between God and man. God supplies the power and strength. It is up to us to use it. God works through us, not for us.

[rca]

THE PRODIGAL SON

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Prodigal Son to Pharisees and Scribes, who were being snobbish for keeping the law. A parable is a story from one's own experience meant to make a moral point. They could relate to a human father with two sons, the eldest being obedient to the law, but sinful in his heart in that he is unable to forgive the younger, unlawful son, who has repented. The human father forgave the sinful son. That is the context. Now, about this story, I believe that you are thinking that the youngest son lost his salvation. He did lose his inheritance, or reward in the family, but he remained the human father's son in good and evil times. I liken this moral or spiritual principle to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass.

Another point that you made about this parable is that the father showed emotions -- waiting for the son to return -- without affecting what the son did. I never said that God does not show emotions. I have already quoted 1 Samuel 24:1, where God is angry. Ephesians 4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." God can be grieved by our behavior, yet the Holy Spirit is still His promise of our future salvation at the day of glory. However, God will and must do what He says, even if He is hurt emotionally through it. This passage never says otherwise.

There is one distinction between this parable and God. This father was human, and therefore powerless to effect the life of his son. God is all powerful and is able to effect the lives of His children. We read in Philippians 1:6, for instance that He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion. We read in 1 Corinthians 8 that Jesus "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." We read in Jude 24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

This does not exempt moral responsibility. I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God. As I have stated before, Jude 20 says that we are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith. The best example of this can be found in Philippians 2:12-13, and I'll quote it from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him." All of these passages speak to God's power in our lives, making us holy and blameless -- and it all happens much faster if we cooperate with God, something any true Christian will do. The human father in the parable of the prodigal son had no power to help his son return to him. Therefore, he looked daily for his son to return.

I just wanted to mention one more thing here. In the above paragraph you said:

I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God.

How come that regarding coming to faith you have stated previously that it is God that chooses first? Otherwise man would be sovereign not God. According to that logic then God would also have to choose last otherwise we would be able to override His decision.

So coming to faith is all God. Man can do nothing to bring it about. Yet once God brings you to faith then moral living requires co-operation with man and God. Then so to speak God becomes powerless as to how you live. You only live moral if you co-operate with God. But if you do not co-operate and continue to be carnal like in 1 Corinthians 3:1 or the prodigal son before coming to his senses, then God is powerless to make you be spiritual or moral. Not only is He powerless to make you live a moral life but He is obligated to keep you saved regardless of how you live.

I would say that is inconsistent logic. God would not be absolutely sovereign then.

You also mentioned that supralarianism website http://www.predestinarian.net/library/showentry.php?e=34 where the writer there states that God decrees every event, good evil or neutral like tying your shoelaces. I do not know why you recommended me to read this if you do not believe this yourself.

[Rhonda Lou]

I just wanted to mention one more thing here. In the above paragraph you said:

I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God.

How come that regarding coming to faith you have stated previously that it is God that chooses first? Otherwise man would be sovereign not God. According to that logic then God would also have to choose last otherwise we would be able to override His decision.

So coming to faith is all God. Man can do nothing to bring it about. Yet once God brings you to faith then moral living requires co-operation with man and God. Then so to speak God becomes powerless as to how you live. You only live moral if you co-operate with God. But if you do not co-operate and continue to be carnal like in 1 Corinthians 3:1 or the prodigal son before coming to his senses, then God is powerless to make you be spiritual or moral. Not only is He powerless to make you live a moral life but He is obligated to keep you saved regardless of how you live.

I would say that is inconsistent logic. God would not be absolutely sovereign then.

You also mentioned that supralarianism website http://www.predestinarian.net/library/showentry.php?e=34 where the writer there states that God decrees every event, good evil or neutral like tying your shoelaces. I do not know why you recommended me to read this if you do not believe this yourself.

rca, I read this a week ago, but birthdays and other things have kept me from responding to both of your posts. I realize that there are time constraints for both of us, but that others may read this. It is just that nobody else seems to be reading it right now, we are both Christians, and I have told you what I believe and why, and you have told me what you believe and why. Since we both agree that faith comes by hearing, I feel like time would be better spent trying to spread the gospel to those who haven't heard it, in case God opens their hearts to respond to it. I will admit that I haven't done any of that reaching out, however -- I have been too caught up in other things. But that is the ideal. However, I will respond to your points about the Prodigal Son.

At the outset, I will say that I believe that those who are truly saved, who have Christ in them, their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) can not lose their salvation. You are correct in stating that this is a whole other topic, and there is a thread here in the Inner Court called "Can salvation be lost?" or something like that. I have posts on there, though it has been some time since I wrote anything there, so if you are interested, you'd have to really look through the whole thread. You are correct in that I should not have introduced that topic here.

OK, for your other points. In response to your view that the Prodigal Son was dead, but is alive, my point was this: the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father. A case in point: In "Fiddler on the Roof", Reptivia (sp) tore his clothes with the third daughter. What he was saying is, "You are dead to me." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day would understand this concept from their law. Yes, while the father represents God -- the father is NOT God, he is a human father operating under human concepts. What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same. A parable, as I said, is a story with a point, and only the point is to be taken literally -- in this case the father forgives the son.

I stated that the son was considered "dead" to his moral compass, yet was still his father's son -- and had not lost that status, to point out that in this case, the son was part of the "family" having known the Father, the rules of the house, etc. I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is somebody who already has facts. Unbelievers are not remotely alive spiritually as these Scriptures I quoted elsewhere state:(Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; John 2:24-25; Ephesians 2:1-2; 5; 5:5-8; Colossians 1:21-22; 2:13; Romans 3:11-12; 23; 6:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16; and Romans 8:6-7).

As for 1 Corinthians 3, verses 1-5 does speak about carnal believers sticking to one or another. Paul says in verse 6 that I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase, again, there speaking of teachers. But in verse 9, Paul says, "For we (teachers) are labourers together with God; YE ARE God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (here "Ye" becomes all believers). In verse 10, Paul says that he laid the right foundation, another built on it, but then he continues: "But let EVERY MAN take heed how he buildeth thereupon." In verse 11, he says the foundation is Christ. In verse 12, he says, "Now if any man build upon this foundation." and then in verse 13, he says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest." "Every man" refers to EVERY MAN, not just teachers. Every person's works will be judged. Bad, or non-productive works will be destroyed as hay, wood or stubble are burned in fire, but the person himself or herself will be saved, if he/she is a Christian. That is how I understand this passage.

The final point brought out is that I admit that we must cooperate with God. I got a little confused when you said that this makes God less than sovereign as He waits for us to cooperate with Him. I have stated all along that I believe in both predestination and free will. I believe that in salvation, God draws the chosen one by opening his/her ("his" is just easier to say from now on) mind and heart to receive the truth, then puts at least one person or pamphlet or Bible or whatever in the hands of the ones God has opened hearts to receive the gospel -- so that these ones may HEAR the gospel. God gives them the belief. God gives them the repentance. At the right time, God works through others to extend an invitation, one He knows they will accept and has caused them to accept. He never holds his breath waiting to see what we will do. However, the choice is not just an illusion. The Bible teaches both God's actions in our lives -- and our choice. I have said all along that we much choose God as the final step of salvation -- but that our choice does NOT predetermine God's actions. He acts solely for His own reasons and for His own glory. I have stated that in human terms, this does not make sense, but the Bible clearly teaches it -- that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scriptures for both, denying neither. So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited. When God's will is revealed to a believer, we can choose to say yes or no. God's will WILL be done, and He WILL finish the work He begins in us -- but it goes MUCH FASTER if we are obedient right up front. An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit.

Again, however, I caution: we do not know who has been chosen and who has not been saved. We are told to spread the gospel to all, and to leave the results with God. The Bible does not indicate that living in the reality of both predestination and free will leads to fatalism and standing back to see what God will do, but every person who believed in predestination suffered mightily for spreading the gospel. They did not sit back and wait for God. Truly saved people would not do that. In the book of Esther, Haman made a deal with the king to kill all the Jews. Esther was one. Mordecai, her uncle, wanted her to speak to the king. In Esther 4:11, she reminded Mordecai's spokesman, Hathach that if anybody spoke to the king when the king did not ask them to speak, they would die, so she was scared to speak to the king. Mordecai's response, through Hathach, was "Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews. For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:11, ff) In essence he was saying that God will do His will -- but don't you DARE "sit back" and wait for it, especially if God is waiting for you to be the instrument He uses to accomplish His will." God works through people and any true Christian will "cooperate" with God, doing what God wants them to do. God can accomplish His will without us, but He chooses to use us: those works He prepared beforehand that we might walk in them.

I believe that yet again, we are going in circles. Open forum or not, I've stated my position. If another wishes to agree or disagree with you, then they have the floor. I've said all I can say, and repeated myself a lot. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3.

[rca]

rca, I read this a week ago, but birthdays and other things have kept me from responding to both of your posts. I realize that there are time constraints for both of us, but that others may read this. It is just that nobody else seems to be reading it right now, we are both Christians, and I have told you what I believe and why, and you have told me what you believe and why. Since we both agree that faith comes by hearing, I feel like time would be better spent trying to spread the gospel to those who haven't heard it, in case God opens their hearts to respond to it. I will admit that I haven't done any of that reaching out, however -- I have been too caught up in other things. But that is the ideal. However, I will respond to your points about the Prodigal Son.

At the outset, I will say that I believe that those who are truly saved, who have Christ in them, their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) can not lose their salvation. You are correct in stating that this is a whole other topic, and there is a thread here in the Inner Court called "Can salvation be lost?" or something like that. I have posts on there, though it has been some time since I wrote anything there, so if you are interested, you'd have to really look through the whole thread. You are correct in that I should not have introduced that topic here.

OK, for your other points. In response to your view that the Prodigal Son was dead, but is alive, my point was this: the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father. A case in point: In "Fiddler on the Roof", Reptivia (sp) tore his clothes with the third daughter. What he was saying is, "You are dead to me." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day would understand this concept from their law. Yes, while the father represents God -- the father is NOT God, he is a human father operating under human concepts. What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same. A parable, as I said, is a story with a point, and only the point is to be taken literally -- in this case the father forgives the son.

I stated that the son was considered "dead" to his moral compass, yet was still his father's son -- and had not lost that status, to point out that in this case, the son was part of the "family" having known the Father, the rules of the house, etc. I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is somebody who already has facts. Unbelievers are not remotely alive spiritually as these Scriptures I quoted elsewhere state:(Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; John 2:24-25; Ephesians 2:1-2; 5; 5:5-8; Colossians 1:21-22; 2:13; Romans 3:11-12; 23; 6:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16; and Romans 8:6-7).

As for 1 Corinthians 3, verses 1-5 does speak about carnal believers sticking to one or another. Paul says in verse 6 that I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase, again, there speaking of teachers. But in verse 9, Paul says, "For we (teachers) are labourers together with God; YE ARE God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (here "Ye" becomes all believers). In verse 10, Paul says that he laid the right foundation, another built on it, but then he continues: "But let EVERY MAN take heed how he buildeth thereupon." In verse 11, he says the foundation is Christ. In verse 12, he says, "Now if any man build upon this foundation." and then in verse 13, he says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest." "Every man" refers to EVERY MAN, not just teachers. Every person's works will be judged. Bad, or non-productive works will be destroyed as hay, wood or stubble are burned in fire, but the person himself or herself will be saved, if he/she is a Christian. That is how I understand this passage.

The final point brought out is that I admit that we must cooperate with God. I got a little confused when you said that this makes God less than sovereign as He waits for us to cooperate with Him. I have stated all along that I believe in both predestination and free will. I believe that in salvation, God draws the chosen one by opening his/her ("his" is just easier to say from now on) mind and heart to receive the truth, then puts at least one person or pamphlet or Bible or whatever in the hands of the ones God has opened hearts to receive the gospel -- so that these ones may HEAR the gospel. God gives them the belief. God gives them the repentance. At the right time, God works through others to extend an invitation, one He knows they will accept and has caused them to accept. He never holds his breath waiting to see what we will do. However, the choice is not just an illusion. The Bible teaches both God's actions in our lives -- and our choice. I have said all along that we much choose God as the final step of salvation -- but that our choice does NOT predetermine God's actions. He acts solely for His own reasons and for His own glory. I have stated that in human terms, this does not make sense, but the Bible clearly teaches it -- that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scriptures for both, denying neither. So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited. When God's will is revealed to a believer, we can choose to say yes or no. God's will WILL be done, and He WILL finish the work He begins in us -- but it goes MUCH FASTER if we are obedient right up front. An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit.

Again, however, I caution: we do not know who has been chosen and who has not been saved. We are told to spread the gospel to all, and to leave the results with God. The Bible does not indicate that living in the reality of both predestination and free will leads to fatalism and standing back to see what God will do, but every person who believed in predestination suffered mightily for spreading the gospel. They did not sit back and wait for God. Truly saved people would not do that. In the book of Esther, Haman made a deal with the king to kill all the Jews. Esther was one. Mordecai, her uncle, wanted her to speak to the king. In Esther 4:11, she reminded Mordecai's spokesman, Hathach that if anybody spoke to the king when the king did not ask them to speak, they would die, so she was scared to speak to the king. Mordecai's response, through Hathach, was "Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews. For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:11, ff) In essence he was saying that God will do His will -- but don't you DARE "sit back" and wait for it, especially if God is waiting for you to be the instrument He uses to accomplish His will." God works through people and any true Christian will "cooperate" with God, doing what God wants them to do. God can accomplish His will without us, but He chooses to use us: those works He prepared beforehand that we might walk in them.

I believe that yet again, we are going in circles. Open forum or not, I've stated my position. If another wishes to agree or disagree with you, then they have the floor. I've said all I can say, and repeated myself a lot. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3.

I have not responded for awhile because I was very busy with Christmas preparations. I sense that you gasp when I comment on what you have said because of all the time it has taken you to repond. You strongly suggest that I stop writing. I, too would also like to move on. Having said that I will quote your last sentence in the above quote and apply it to myself. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3. Actually I won't even respond to your 1 Corinthians 3 writing. It is too far removed from our current topic.

In post 968 Rhonda Lou says: (Bold is mine for emphasis)

<<I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people.>>

Then in post 995 you say regarding the prodigal son:

I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is someone who already has facts.

At first you say that all the world has the facts of God but that alone does not make them able to choose God let alone be saved. Then you say that the prodigal son was a believer because he had all the facts. This is a contradiction. Why is the prodigal son special? Even though it says that he was dead you claim that he is a believer because he had all the facts while in a previous post you say that all the world gets the facts of God.

Also the parable of the prodigal son is in a series of parables that all have a related theme. Something or someone is lost and then found. This is followed by a celebration. The other two add that there will be joy in heaven over one sinner who repents (Luke 15:7,10).

When in Luke 15:24,32 it says that the son was dead and now is alive, it also says that he was lost and now is found. This connects it with the previous 2 parables where something or someone was lost and now is found.

It seems to me as you are not reading these parables from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and the passage must be interpreted to fit your prime datum. A neutral meaning would be that the prodigal son was spiritually dead and now was alive again.

The context of these 3 parables is that Jesus was eating with sinners and the Pharisees were grumbling about this (Luke 15:1-3). In the boxed part of your quote you said "the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father... What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same." While what you said may be true, the main reason for Jesus saying these 3 parable is because the Jewish leaders were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was eating with sinners.

Also Jesus was attacking the Pharisees with this last parable. The Pharisees were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was receiving sinners and eating with them. Jesus was like the shepherd and the woman actively looking for what was lost. By receiving the sinners the way they are, Jesus was winning them over to believe on Him. This was a reason to celebrate like all the parables were mentioning that. The Pharisees were like the elder brother claiming that they were the righteous ones and these sinners deserve nothing and should receive nothing from the father (Luke 15:29-30). The parable was meant to condemn the Pharisees for their self righteous attitudes and for the fact that the Pharisees did not rejoice when sinners were found or became alive spiritually.

This was not the first time that the Pharisees grumbled over sinners being accepted by Jesus. Matthew 9:10-13 is another incident that is recorded in all 3 synoptic gospels. For the Pharisees the tax collectors and prostitutes were the bottom of the earth, the most despised people there were. Jesus said another parable directed to the Pharisees in Matthew 21:28-32, the parable of the 2 sons. Jesus told the Pharisees that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of God before they do. Such a statement angered the Pharisees greatly. Then Jesus tells 2 more parables directed against the Pharisees in Matthew 21:33-22:14. The last one also described the salvation process. In that parable (Matthew 22:1-14) there is no room for God choosing first theology. In that parable the ones that were called at first did not come to the wedding feast. Not all that God calls or invites choose to accept God's call. Many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

Both the shepherd (Luke 15:4-7) and the woman (Luke 15:8-10) went looking for what was lost in order to find it. When they found it, they rejoiced greatly. In the same way Jesus was dining with these sinners in the hope that they would respond with repentance. This was Revelation 3:20 literally in action.

Jesus and/or God the Father is drawing us. That is God's part. It is up to us to repent and come to faith. That is our part. You like to quote John 6:44. In Post 985 you even claim that Jesus is speaking about predestination (your interpretation of it) in this verse. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice what this verse does not say. This verse does not say whether the Father draws everyone in the world or only a select. And it also does not say if all of those that are drawn by the Father actually come to Jesus. It says that only those that the Father draws can come to Jesus. It does not say that they will come to Jesus.

John 6:44 cannot be read independently of John 6:45. John 6:45 begins with "It is written ...". That means that what was just said is backed up or proved by another Scripture. In 6:45 it says that all will be taught by God. I would say that being taught by God is the same as being drawn by the Father. 6:45 goes on by saying that those who have heard and learnt from the Father come to Jesus. So according to this, all are drawn but only some respond and come to Jesus. Regarding that the drawing is universal is further proved by John 12:32. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself." All are drawn but only some come.

John 6:45 says that all are taught by God. However only those who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees to "go and learn what this means 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice' (Matthew 9:13)". In John 8:43,47 it says "Why do you not understand what I (Jesus) say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word ... Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God. God's word has come out to all the world. That is God's part. It is up to us to respond by hearing and learning from the word.

Matthew 22:14 says "Many are called, but few are chosen". This is in reference to the parable of the Wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-14). In the boxed quote you also say "So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited." In the parable many were invited that did not come to the feast and they were destroyed (22:7). One came to the feast but was not wearing wedding garments. He was cast into outer darkness (22:11-13). According to this parable (which began with "The kingdom of heaven is like...") not responding to the invitation resulted in severe punishment (hell). Many (the world) are called but few are chosen (chosen because of their response to Jesus not according to your definition of predestination). So I would say responding positively (obediently) to God's call (He calls all not just some) is not an option to put it off as long as you like. There are many that would like a "get out of hell card" and live to please themselves. Those are not the people that God will choose to save.

In your boxed quote you say "An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit." So according to this believers have an option. They could choose to live their entire life in the flesh. They could live like unbelievers and still be saved. The Bible talks about setting your mind on the flesh or according to the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8). Reading this at face value, setting your mind is what we do, not what God does for us. God does not set anybody's mind on anything. This is what we do. It is like a TV with 2 channels. One is the flesh or Satan's channel. The other is the Holy Spirit channel. We have a choice on what channel we put our mind on. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace (Romans 8:6).

Regarding the same above boxed quote, while believers have the Holy Spirit inside of them, unbelievers have the Holy Spirit operating in their lives as well. The Holy Spirit is convicting them (John 16:8). So the Holy Spirit has a role in an unbeliever's life as well as in a believer's life. Jesus stands on the door and knocks (Rev. 3:20)

In the boxed quote you say "that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scripture for both, denying neither" I can say the same thing as well. Some of the passages you say you read at face value does not seem like face value to me. And there are passages I say that I read at face value, you do not agree with me that I am reading them at face value. I also believe that our beliefs have to be supported by all Scripture, not just some. I try not to have any paradoxes. If you allow them too freely you can easily start a cult. Every passage that seems to support God not man choosing I can read and interpret that man does have free choice.

[Rhonda Lou]

rca, I read this a week ago, but birthdays and other things have kept me from responding to both of your posts. I realize that there are time constraints for both of us, but that others may read this. It is just that nobody else seems to be reading it right now, we are both Christians, and I have told you what I believe and why, and you have told me what you believe and why. Since we both agree that faith comes by hearing, I feel like time would be better spent trying to spread the gospel to those who haven't heard it, in case God opens their hearts to respond to it. I will admit that I haven't done any of that reaching out, however -- I have been too caught up in other things. But that is the ideal. However, I will respond to your points about the Prodigal Son.

At the outset, I will say that I believe that those who are truly saved, who have Christ in them, their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) can not lose their salvation. You are correct in stating that this is a whole other topic, and there is a thread here in the Inner Court called "Can salvation be lost?" or something like that. I have posts on there, though it has been some time since I wrote anything there, so if you are interested, you'd have to really look through the whole thread. You are correct in that I should not have introduced that topic here.

OK, for your other points. In response to your view that the Prodigal Son was dead, but is alive, my point was this: the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father. A case in point: In "Fiddler on the Roof", Reptivia (sp) tore his clothes with the third daughter. What he was saying is, "You are dead to me." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day would understand this concept from their law. Yes, while the father represents God -- the father is NOT God, he is a human father operating under human concepts. What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same. A parable, as I said, is a story with a point, and only the point is to be taken literally -- in this case the father forgives the son.

I stated that the son was considered "dead" to his moral compass, yet was still his father's son -- and had not lost that status, to point out that in this case, the son was part of the "family" having known the Father, the rules of the house, etc. I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is somebody who already has facts. Unbelievers are not remotely alive spiritually as these Scriptures I quoted elsewhere state:(Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; John 2:24-25; Ephesians 2:1-2; 5; 5:5-8; Colossians 1:21-22; 2:13; Romans 3:11-12; 23; 6:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16; and Romans 8:6-7).

As for 1 Corinthians 3, verses 1-5 does speak about carnal believers sticking to one or another. Paul says in verse 6 that I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase, again, there speaking of teachers. But in verse 9, Paul says, "For we (teachers) are labourers together with God; YE ARE God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (here "Ye" becomes all believers). In verse 10, Paul says that he laid the right foundation, another built on it, but then he continues: "But let EVERY MAN take heed how he buildeth thereupon." In verse 11, he says the foundation is Christ. In verse 12, he says, "Now if any man build upon this foundation." and then in verse 13, he says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest." "Every man" refers to EVERY MAN, not just teachers. Every person's works will be judged. Bad, or non-productive works will be destroyed as hay, wood or stubble are burned in fire, but the person himself or herself will be saved, if he/she is a Christian. That is how I understand this passage.

The final point brought out is that I admit that we must cooperate with God. I got a little confused when you said that this makes God less than sovereign as He waits for us to cooperate with Him. I have stated all along that I believe in both predestination and free will. I believe that in salvation, God draws the chosen one by opening his/her ("his" is just easier to say from now on) mind and heart to receive the truth, then puts at least one person or pamphlet or Bible or whatever in the hands of the ones God has opened hearts to receive the gospel -- so that these ones may HEAR the gospel. God gives them the belief. God gives them the repentance. At the right time, God works through others to extend an invitation, one He knows they will accept and has caused them to accept. He never holds his breath waiting to see what we will do. However, the choice is not just an illusion. The Bible teaches both God's actions in our lives -- and our choice. I have said all along that we much choose God as the final step of salvation -- but that our choice does NOT predetermine God's actions. He acts solely for His own reasons and for His own glory. I have stated that in human terms, this does not make sense, but the Bible clearly teaches it -- that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scriptures for both, denying neither. So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited. When God's will is revealed to a believer, we can choose to say yes or no. God's will WILL be done, and He WILL finish the work He begins in us -- but it goes MUCH FASTER if we are obedient right up front. An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit.

Again, however, I caution: we do not know who has been chosen and who has not been saved. We are told to spread the gospel to all, and to leave the results with God. The Bible does not indicate that living in the reality of both predestination and free will leads to fatalism and standing back to see what God will do, but every person who believed in predestination suffered mightily for spreading the gospel. They did not sit back and wait for God. Truly saved people would not do that. In the book of Esther, Haman made a deal with the king to kill all the Jews. Esther was one. Mordecai, her uncle, wanted her to speak to the king. In Esther 4:11, she reminded Mordecai's spokesman, Hathach that if anybody spoke to the king when the king did not ask them to speak, they would die, so she was scared to speak to the king. Mordecai's response, through Hathach, was "Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews. For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:11, ff) In essence he was saying that God will do His will -- but don't you DARE "sit back" and wait for it, especially if God is waiting for you to be the instrument He uses to accomplish His will." God works through people and any true Christian will "cooperate" with God, doing what God wants them to do. God can accomplish His will without us, but He chooses to use us: those works He prepared beforehand that we might walk in them.

I believe that yet again, we are going in circles. Open forum or not, I've stated my position. If another wishes to agree or disagree with you, then they have the floor. I've said all I can say, and repeated myself a lot. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3.

I have not responded for awhile because I was very busy with Christmas preparations. I sense that you gasp when I comment on what you have said because of all the time it has taken you to repond. You strongly suggest that I stop writing. I, too would also like to move on. Having said that I will quote your last sentence in the above quote and apply it to myself. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3. Actually I won't even respond to your 1 Corinthians 3 writing. It is too far removed from our current topic.

In post 968 Rhonda Lou says: (Bold is mine for emphasis)

<<I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people.>>

Then in post 995 you say regarding the prodigal son:

I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is someone who already has facts.

At first you say that all the world has the facts of God but that alone does not make them able to choose God let alone be saved. Then you say that the prodigal son was a believer because he had all the facts. This is a contradiction. Why is the prodigal son special? Even though it says that he was dead you claim that he is a believer because he had all the facts while in a previous post you say that all the world gets the facts of God.

Also the parable of the prodigal son is in a series of parables that all have a related theme. Something or someone is lost and then found. This is followed by a celebration. The other two add that there will be joy in heaven over one sinner who repents (Luke 15:7,10).

When in Luke 15:24,32 it says that the son was dead and now is alive, it also says that he was lost and now is found. This connects it with the previous 2 parables where something or someone was lost and now is found.

It seems to me as you are not reading these parables from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and the passage must be interpreted to fit your prime datum. A neutral meaning would be that the prodigal son was spiritually dead and now was alive again.

The context of these 3 parables is that Jesus was eating with sinners and the Pharisees were grumbling about this (Luke 15:1-3). In the boxed part of your quote you said "the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father... What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same." While what you said may be true, the main reason for Jesus saying these 3 parable is because the Jewish leaders were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was eating with sinners.

Also Jesus was attacking the Pharisees with this last parable. The Pharisees were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was receiving sinners and eating with them. Jesus was like the shepherd and the woman actively looking for what was lost. By receiving the sinners the way they are, Jesus was winning them over to believe on Him. This was a reason to celebrate like all the parables were mentioning that. The Pharisees were like the elder brother claiming that they were the righteous ones and these sinners deserve nothing and should receive nothing from the father (Luke 15:29-30). The parable was meant to condemn the Pharisees for their self righteous attitudes and for the fact that the Pharisees did not rejoice when sinners were found or became alive spiritually.

This was not the first time that the Pharisees grumbled over sinners being accepted by Jesus. Matthew 9:10-13 is another incident that is recorded in all 3 synoptic gospels. For the Pharisees the tax collectors and prostitutes were the bottom of the earth, the most despised people there were. Jesus said another parable directed to the Pharisees in Matthew 21:28-32, the parable of the 2 sons. Jesus told the Pharisees that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of God before they do. Such a statement angered the Pharisees greatly. Then Jesus tells 2 more parables directed against the Pharisees in Matthew 21:33-22:14. The last one also described the salvation process. In that parable (Matthew 22:1-14) there is no room for God choosing first theology. In that parable the ones that were called at first did not come to the wedding feast. Not all that God calls or invites choose to accept God's call. Many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

Both the shepherd (Luke 15:4-7) and the woman (Luke 15:8-10) went looking for what was lost in order to find it. When they found it, they rejoiced greatly. In the same way Jesus was dining with these sinners in the hope that they would respond with repentance. This was Revelation 3:20 literally in action.

Jesus and/or God the Father is drawing us. That is God's part. It is up to us to repent and come to faith. That is our part. You like to quote John 6:44. In Post 985 you even claim that Jesus is speaking about predestination (your interpretation of it) in this verse. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice what this verse does not say. This verse does not say whether the Father draws everyone in the world or only a select. And it also does not say if all of those that are drawn by the Father actually come to Jesus. It says that only those that the Father draws can come to Jesus. It does not say that they will come to Jesus.

John 6:44 cannot be read independently of John 6:45. John 6:45 begins with "It is written ...". That means that what was just said is backed up or proved by another Scripture. In 6:45 it says that all will be taught by God. I would say that being taught by God is the same as being drawn by the Father. 6:45 goes on by saying that those who have heard and learnt from the Father come to Jesus. So according to this, all are drawn but only some respond and come to Jesus. Regarding that the drawing is universal is further proved by John 12:32. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself." All are drawn but only some come.

John 6:45 says that all are taught by God. However only those who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees to "go and learn what this means 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice' (Matthew 9:13)". In John 8:43,47 it says "Why do you not understand what I (Jesus) say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word ... Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God. God's word has come out to all the world. That is God's part. It is up to us to respond by hearing and learning from the word.

Matthew 22:14 says "Many are called, but few are chosen". This is in reference to the parable of the Wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-14). In the boxed quote you also say "So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited." In the parable many were invited that did not come to the feast and they were destroyed (22:7). One came to the feast but was not wearing wedding garments. He was cast into outer darkness (22:11-13). According to this parable (which began with "The kingdom of heaven is like...") not responding to the invitation resulted in severe punishment (hell). Many (the world) are called but few are chosen (chosen because of their response to Jesus not according to your definition of predestination). So I would say responding positively (obediently) to God's call (He calls all not just some) is not an option to put it off as long as you like. There are many that would like a "get out of hell card" and live to please themselves. Those are not the people that God will choose to save.

In your boxed quote you say "An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit." So according to this believers have an option. They could choose to live their entire life in the flesh. They could live like unbelievers and still be saved. The Bible talks about setting your mind on the flesh or according to the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8). Reading this at face value, setting your mind is what we do, not what God does for us. God does not set anybody's mind on anything. This is what we do. It is like a TV with 2 channels. One is the flesh or Satan's channel. The other is the Holy Spirit channel. We have a choice on what channel we put our mind on. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace (Romans 8:6).

Regarding the same above boxed quote, while believers have the Holy Spirit inside of them, unbelievers have the Holy Spirit operating in their lives as well. The Holy Spirit is convicting them (John 16:8). So the Holy Spirit has a role in an unbeliever's life as well as in a believer's life. Jesus stands on the door and knocks (Rev. 3:20)

In the boxed quote you say "that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scripture for both, denying neither" I can say the same thing as well. Some of the passages you say you read at face value does not seem like face value to me. And there are passages I say that I read at face value, you do not agree with me that I am reading them at face value. I also believe that our beliefs have to be supported by all Scripture, not just some. I try not to have any paradoxes. If you allow them too freely you can easily start a cult. Every passage that seems to support God not man choosing I can read and interpret that man does have free choice.

rca,

I thank you for your response. I just want to clear one thing up. I never meant that you should not write anymore, just that my mind is not goting to change, and your mind is not going to change, so my spending hourse writing you when I could be responding to other questions, or trying to respond to unbelievers, or writing inmate letters, or whatever seems a waste of time for me. I would never want to tell another person what they can and cannot do. On the issue of the Prodigal Son, I've stated what I believed. I read in your last paragraph that you do not believe in paradoxes in the Bible. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be fully God and fully Man while on earth, I believe the Bible teaches that He is. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, and making intercession for us, and yet be in us (Romans 8:34; John 14:23; Colossians 1:27), and yet He is. I explained the point of the parable of the Prodigal Son as I saw it. I also pointed out all of the other verses which state that those dead in their sins don't seek God, and must therefore be saved by God. A look over all that I have written indicates that I totally believe in predestination; and that I totally believe in free will. I simply do not believe that our will is taken into account when God chooses us, but I have repeatedly stated that it is necessary that we repent and believe. I was simply stating that as there was nothing more I could add, I'd like to leave the conversation, but you are welcome to continue writing.

[rca]

rca,

One final post. It is taking way too much time from other ministerial efforts, and I'm beginning to feel childishly stubborn. I pray, as ever, that God writes this through me, and that it is lovingly gentle.

From reading your post, I believe the new things you've brought up are a belief that the Prodigal Son parable speaks to free will over God's sovereignty, and that 2:14 is speaking about new believers or babes since Paul is speaking to Christian infants in 1 Corinthians 3:1.

I just want to say a few things regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14. Both you and Kross have misunderstood what I was trying to say in 1 Corinthians 2:14. I did not say that 2:14 is talking about new believers.

I tried to say that both the natural man or unbeliever (2:14) and the new believer (3:1) were not able to understand spiritual things. This was in response to Rhonda Lou's question of How can one who CANNOT understand the things of God be saved? I tried to say that not all believers (new believers) can understand spiritual things or the things of God. 3:1 is an example of a saved person that does not understand the things of God. This is all I wanted to say. I did not want to start a debate of if you can lose your salvation.

Spiritual knowledge is like all other knowledge. You do not teach a 5 year old Grade 12 math. They cannot understand it. An unbeliever is taught the basics of what is required for salvation. A new believer you give milk. Then a mature believer you give meat.

According to Hebrew 5:11-6:1 first is the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God. Then elementary doctrine or milk for the new believer. Then finally solid food for the mature in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:6-13 shows that this is not just foundational things of God (repentance from dead works and faith towards God) that the Spirit is imparting. 2:6 begins with "Yet among the mature"..." So 2:6-13 is talking about things of God for the mature. That is why the unbelievers (natural man 2:14) and the new believers (infants in Christ 3:1) could not understand those spiritual things.

[rca]

rca,

Now, I read the rest of your post, and discovered other passages. I'm going to go over them quickly. Jude 10: The book of Jude was written to warn against false teachers: "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) These teachers are FALSE, they are not TRUE Christians, they are FALSE Christians PRETENDING to be true Christians. Since, they do not have the mind of Christ, they do not understand the things of Christ. Verse 10 says, "But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves." They don't know what they are talking about because they are natural, not spiritual.

My initial post in which Rhonda Lou is responding to is:

Jude talks about very immoral people. They are like unreasoning animals (verse 10). God says to Israel come let us reason together says the Lord though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow ... If you are willing and obedient ... but if you refuse ... (Isaiah 1:18-20). God reasons with man, He does not decree them to follow Him. God tried to build a vineyard out of Israel but failed (Isaiah 5:1-4). It was not that God failed but that Israel refused to listen to God. God does not choose us for salvation and then it is guaranteed that we will follow Him. God calls everyone, the whole world but only some choose to respond to Him. Many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

I wanted to emphasize the importance of reasoning. That is how God witnesses to the world, to the unbelievers. I wanted to contrast Isaiah 1:18 "Come let us reason". with Jude 10 "They are like unreasoning animals". In your response to this you stated several times that these teachers are not true teachers. I already know this. I merely wanted to say that God reasons with man, He does not decree man to follow Him. And if you do not listen to reason, then God cannot help you.

I am now done with responding to what you have said. I will now start to interpret key Calvinism passages like Romans 9-11 and show that they do NOT teach that only God chooses who will come to Him.

[rca]

rca,

I thank you for your response. I just want to clear one thing up. I never meant that you should not write anymore, just that my mind is not goting to change, and your mind is not going to change, so my spending hourse writing you when I could be responding to other questions, or trying to respond to unbelievers, or writing inmate letters, or whatever seems a waste of time for me. I would never want to tell another person what they can and cannot do. On the issue of the Prodigal Son, I've stated what I believed. I read in your last paragraph that you do not believe in paradoxes in the Bible. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be fully God and fully Man while on earth, I believe the Bible teaches that He is. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, and making intercession for us, and yet be in us (Romans 8:34; John 14:23; Colossians 1:27), and yet He is. I explained the point of the parable of the Prodigal Son as I saw it. I also pointed out all of the other verses which state that those dead in their sins don't seek God, and must therefore be saved by God. A look over all that I have written indicates that I totally believe in predestination; and that I totally believe in free will. I simply do not believe that our will is taken into account when God chooses us, but I have repeatedly stated that it is necessary that we repent and believe. I was simply stating that as there was nothing more I could add, I'd like to leave the conversation, but you are welcome to continue writing.

Rhonda Lou

I want to thank you for all what you have written in response to me. I agree that it has taken very much time. Looking back it was more time than I wanted to spend on this. Yet if it was not for you it would have seemed like talking to the wall. I got to see how the other side thinks. I got to see which passages they like to use. I have discovered new insight into some passages while trying to explain my position. And at times I searched the internet to see how other like minded people explained certain passages. Through that I also have learned new things. I do plan to at some point write down all my beliefs in a blog as well.

I appreciate the time you did spend on debating me. I respect your beliefs and have no intention on trying to change them. Thank you. I wish you God's blessing in the new year.

rca