Coming for the saints

[Isa]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

come on now. wrath, tribulation, suffering . . . it's all going on now in the world. or do you expect you present life be free from all difficulty because you want to term it judgment?? i don't understand this viewpoint, i guess.

We may go through tribulations and sufferings in this life, but they are nothing compared to what is about to come on unbelievers for God's wrath is going to be dished out on them not believers.

The great tribulation and God's wrath are not the same thing.

I hate to tell you my friend but the great tribulation is God's wrath on the wicked who are living on the earth.

Revelation 6:15-17

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks,

[Fraught]

the above post? that is one opinion. but not the only one.

[Isa]

the above post? that is one opinion. but not the only one.

Hi Fraught,

That seems to be the problem peoples opinions, they are listening to themselves and what others say but not God. Our opinions about what is said doesn't matter., what the bible says does.

2 Peter 1:20

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

The bible says what it says and you can't skirt around it sorry. And that is God's opinion for He is the aurthor of the Bible.

God Bless

[Isa]

the above post? that is one opinion. but not the only one.

Hi Fraught,

That seems to be the problem peoples opinions, they are listening to themselves and what others say but not God. Our opinions about what is said doesn't matter., what the bible says does.

2 Peter 1:20

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

The bible says what it says and you can't skirt around it sorry. And that is God's opinion for He is the aurthor of the Bible.

God Bless

I can not believe you would lecture fraught about what God says when you could care less,you ignore it completely,and push your own beliefs over what his words says.

Just because one doesn't believe what you think the word of God says, doesn't mean you can be little condem or judge, we have used scripture to support what we believe and not just the new testament God has shown us in the old testament what we believe and teach or preach as you put it aswell.

Scripture will always back up scripture. You believe what you want to believe and there is no discussion about it, it is what you say and that is it. I am God what I have said no one can disagree with me. It doesn't work that way my friend you need to back what you say up with scripture not just from the old testament. God has given us the whole Bible to learn from so to support your post trib theory show me where it is spoken of in the old testament as I have shown you werte it talks nurmerous times where to find the Lords return with His saints at the end of the tribulation. Plus you have the bride already in heaven with the trib saints before He returns to the Mount of Olives and takes back Jerusalem. The problem is my friend Satan get's angry because He know's we are right and he is wrong. Satan always hates being disproved and he will always be on the attack.

1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

I must say for all my fellow pre-tribbers we are not devoured by Satan and his followers for we know the truth of God's word.

John 8:32

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[Massorite]

Massorite, Love your post and agree with you.

The beginning of the church grew during much tribulation and I personally believe it will grow more durng the end of this age and the great tribulation to come.

John saw a number that "no man could number" and the angel told him that these were those who come out of the Great trib. So does one think that they are suffering Gods wrath or Satans tribulation/persecution?

I agree with the late Corrie Ten Boom when she said that the Rapture theory is mainly a western idea.

I believe the Church will be refined in the fire. The church will also be tested. Its true that we are not appointed to Gods wrath, our appointment with Him is different. That said though, we may have to go thru the tribulation.

God protected the Children of Israel while they were in Egypt while Egypt was experiencing Gods wrath and then God led the Children of Israel out of Egypt.

I believe the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are 2 separate things.

According to scripture that is exactly correct. I also believe that the tribulation that is to come will separate the men from the boys so to speak. It will be a weeding out process and only those who have a truly loving relationship with Christ will be left standing. I believe that we will not be going any where until we have made the ultimate choice which will be to choose between the mark of the beast (the things of this world) and the things of God. The mark of the beast will define who we really are. True Christians or heathens.

[Isa]

the above post? that is one opinion. but not the only one.

Hi Fraught,

That seems to be the problem peoples opinions, they are listening to themselves and what others say but not God. Our opinions about what is said doesn't matter., what the bible says does.

2 Peter 1:20

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

The bible says what it says and you can't skirt around it sorry. And that is God's opinion for He is the aurthor of the Bible.

God Bless

I can not believe you would lecture fraught about what God says when you could care less,you ignore it completely,and push your own beliefs over what his words says.

Just because one doesn't believe what you think the word of God says, doesn't mean you can be little condem or judge, we have used scripture to support what we believe

It is not about what I believe,you disagree with God himself when to teach pretrib rapture,and then tell others not to disregard scripture.

I find that to be hypocritical,by the way there is NO I mean NO scripture to support your belief.

Hi onwingsaseagles,

I would like to see you support what you believe God is telling you with the whole Word of God not just the new Testament. Pre-tribbers believe what they believe because it is shown throughout the old and new testament to them. We do not disagree with the word of God, we agree with it 100%.

[Isa]

the above post? that is one opinion. but not the only one.

Hi Fraught,

That seems to be the problem peoples opinions, they are listening to themselves and what others say but not God. Our opinions about what is said doesn't matter., what the bible says does.

2 Peter 1:20

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

The bible says what it says and you can't skirt around it sorry. And that is God's opinion for He is the aurthor of the Bible.

God Bless

I can not believe you would lecture fraught about what God says when you could care less,you ignore it completely,and push your own beliefs over what his words says.

Just because one doesn't believe what you think the word of God says, doesn't mean you can be little condem or judge, we have used scripture to support what we believe

It is not about what I believe,you disagree with God himself when to teach pretrib rapture,and then tell others not to disregard scripture.

I find that to be hypocritical,by the way there is NO I mean NO scripture to support your belief.

Hi onwingsaseagles,

I would like to see you support what you believe God is telling you with the whole Word of God not just the new Testament. Pre-tribbers believe what they believe because it is shown throughout the old and new testament to them. We do not disagree with the word of God, we agree with it 100%.

There is no Old Testament scripture that would even come close to hinting that there might be a pretrib rapture.nor any in the New Testament for that matter.

You have not shown me where the post- tribbers beliefs are in the old testament why not? There are many scriptures in the old and new testament that has been shown to you to support the pre-trib rapture yet you deny what you are shown.

[Yahsway]

Okay, the wicked could not possibly be the only ones on the earth during the Great Tribulation for John saw a number that no man could number coming out of the GT having their robes made white with the blood of the lamb and their testimony.

We keep talking about the GT being the Wrath of God, so where does the tribulation of the saints, the anti-christ and those who follow him fall into all this?

Is he (anti-christ) persecuting those on the earth who do not take his mark? Is this not the tribulation? Does Gods wrath on the wicked last 7years? 3and one half years? or is it the Day of the Lord which is like no other?

Rev 1:9 "I, John, both your brother and companion IN the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, ....

John experiences WITH his readers The Tribulation, or persecution on account of their faith, with patient endurance, which is steadfast courage under unjust suffering.

I have a personal belief about the 144,000 "redeemed" from the earth. These being the firstfruits of God and the Lamb, those from the 12 tribes of Israel. I believe these are those who came up out of their graves after Jesus's resurrection. Here is why I believe this.

Is. 26:19 " Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise, Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

Rev. 14 3-

They sang as it were a new song BEFORE the throne, before the 4 living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the 144,000 who WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

4-....These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were REDEEMED from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb.

5....they are without fault BEFORE the Throne of God.

Matt 27:52

and the graves were opened; and MANY bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were Raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I believe these are the 144,000, they sing a new song, the song of reedemption, these were the fist to be raised from the dead AFTER Jesus's resurrection, These were the 1st to be redeemed from the dust of the earth after Jesus's resurrection. There are no scriptures that say they will preach the gospel during the tribulation period, but these are those that Follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are with Him now.

They are before the throne NOW, I believe they went on to heaven after their witness here on earth after Jesus resurrection. Of course this is only my pesonal belief.

[Isa]

This is an awesome post Yahsway,I personally believe the wrath is the Day of the Lord,the day Jesus return to destroy the wicked,this is when we are resurrected,not b4 the trib.

O' by the way I thought your entire post was very insightful.

Matt 27:52

and the graves were opened; and MANY bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were Raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I believe these are the 144,000, they sing a new song, the song of reedemption, these were the fist to be raised from the dead AFTER Jesus's resurrection, These were the 1st to be redeemed from the dust of the earth after Jesus's resurrection. There are no scriptures that say they will preach the gospel during the tribulation period, but these are those that Follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are with Him now.

They are before the throne NOW, I believe they went on to heaven after their witness here on earth after Jesus resurrection. Of course this is only my pesonal belief.

Hi onwingsaseagles,

You agree with Yahsway that the 144,000 are in heaven with the Lord now. How can you believe such a lie when there is no proof of this in the Bible. Is it because he can deceive one so who is so blind to the truth of God.

Revelation 7:2-4

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying,

Edited January 20, 2008 by Isa