Is Ishmael the Father of Islam (Musilims)?

[getat151]

well i know he came from the line of ishmael but what im sayin is that if you pair that with god's promise to hagar it seems that islam what destined...not saying its a true religion just sayin it was meant to happen and predicted in the bible by god....

when god said....his hand will be against many and many against his hand and he will be the father of many nations.....

[Guest shiloh357]

My study bible says that islam came from ishmael....and the quran says the same thing......and gods profecy to hagar would agree

muslims are against everyone and everyone is against them..

Islam is not a race or a people, Islam is a religion. It did not exist until th 6th century AD. You are confusing Islam with the Arabs who are the primary adherants of Islam. It is a common mistake to see the Arabs as descendants of Ishmael and it is a very recent mistake. It has been foisted in an attempt to make Arab claims to the Holy Land more legitimate by making the Arab race descended from Abraham.

[getat151]

A long time ago Shiloh, you had a post about the descendents of Ishmael and how it relates/ doesnt relate to islam today. Periodically I have tried to find that post of yours. Would you mind repeating the information here?

ARE THE ARABS THE DESCENDANTS OF ISHMAEL?

DR. ROBERT MOREY

Introduction

The Middle East will never have peace until the above question is honestly answered according to the historical facts. Myths and legends are fine as stories for children but in the real world we must have facts and documentation.

Part One

The Arab Claim

The Arabs' claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions:

1. All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.

2. Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.

3. Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.

Ten Historical Facts

1. According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God.

2. The Torah is contradicted by Qur'an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel, but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God.

3. Ishmael's twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the "Ishmaelites."

4. It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would "live to the East of all his brothers." (Gen. 16:12) "And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria." (Gen 25:18) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians.

5. The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger.

6. Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well-documented by archeologists.

7. If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael moved started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.

8. The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the "Father" of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the "Father" of the Arab people, not Ishmael.

9. The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21)

10. Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel.

Part Two

Islam's Claim

Muslims like to claim that Islam give them the right to claim the land of Israel as their own. This claim rests upon two false assumptions:

1. All Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael;

2. Muhammad went to Jerusalem.

Three Historical Facts

1. The first assumption has already been proven false. The Arab people are not all the descendants of Ishmael and hence they are not the heirs of the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures or the land of Israel.

2. The claim that Muhammad went to Jerusalem is false. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, Muhammad had a dream in the middle of the night in which he traveled through the sky, visited seven heavens, met great people like Jesus, and visited the Jerusalem. Since this was only a dream, he was never actually in Jerusalem. The Mosque on the temple site in Jerusalem is a hoax built on the lie that Muhammad stood on the site.

3. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race. Since it is not taught in the Qur'an, it cannot be a true Islamic belief.

Conclusion

The Arab people are not the children of Ishmael. Even if they were, they would still have no claim to Israel because Ishmael was excluded by God Himself from having any part in the covenant made with Abraham. Isaac was the only heir of the Abrahamic covenant. Thus the Arabs as a people have no claim to the land of Israel.

The Muslims have no claim to the land of Israel either. Muhammad never went to Jerusalem except in a dream. The only ones with a spiritual and biblical claim to the land of Israel are the descendants of Isaac, the Jews.

Documentation

"Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 2:176)

"The pure Arabs are those who claim to be descended from Joktan or Qahtan, whom the present Arabs regard as their principle founder...The 'Arabu 'l-Musta'ribah, the mixed Arabs, claim to be descended from Ishmael.they boast as much as the Jews of being reckoned the children of Abraham. This circumstance will account for the preference with which they uniformly regard this branch of their pedigree, and for the many romantic legends they have grafted upon it...The Arabs, in their version of Ishmael's history, have mixed a great deal of romance with the narrative of Scripture." (A Dictionary of Islam, pgs. 18-19)

"Muhammad was not informed about the family of Abraham." (Encyclopedia of Islam) I: 184. See also pages 544-546.

"There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren," is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham's' other descendants...These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Keturah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339)

In the Qur'an, "Gen. 21.17-21...are identified with Mecca." (The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 193). It also states that the Southern Arabs come from Qahtan, not Ishmael (p. 48).

See also:

The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 7, pg. 296 where the connection between the Midianites and the Ishmaelites is noted.

The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam, pgs. 178-179.

A Popular Dictionary of Islam, p. 127.

shiloh my bible talks about muhhamed (founder of muslim religion) coming from ishmael's line im not debating whether all arab people are born from ishmael im speaking of the muslim nation.....which corrosponds with gods promise to hagar about ishmael.....

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh my bible talks about muhhamed (founder of muslim religion) coming from ishmael's line im not debating whether all arab people are born from ishmael im speaking of the muslim nation.....which corrosponds with gods promise to hagar about ishmael.....

The founder of Islam was an Arab named Mohammed.

The promise to hagar was fulfilled in the 12 kingdoms of the Ishamaelites also known as the Midianites in Judges chapter 8. Those kingdoms no longer exist. The ismaelites were not Muslims as Islam did not exist at that time. There was no "muslim nation" until 600 years after the birth of Christianity, and even then, it was primarily made up of Arab people.

[DjZed]

I would say no also.

as it was posted earlier it didnt come about until the 6th century.muslim tradition holds that god handed the quran to Muhammad. Muhammad was illiterate according to tradition. So he didnt just make this up.

a little tidbit.

a reason the quran is not reliable:

Now in the quran, surat 61:6 "And remember, jesus, The son of Mary,said: "o children of isreal i am a messanger of allah(sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with clear signs they said," this is evident sorcery."

Now the footnotes in the quran are similar to the bibles footnotes.

This is what the quran says in the footnotes for "whos name shall be Ahmad."

"Ahmad" or "Muhammed" is almost a translation of the greek word periclytos. In the present gospel of john 14:16 15:26 and 16:7, the word "Comforter" in the englidh version is translated paracletos, which means a"advocate",or "one called to the help of another, a kind friend",rather than "comforter". Our doctors contend that paracletos is a corrupt reading for pariclytos, and that in their original saying of jesus there was a prophecy of our holy Prophet Ahmad by name. Even if we read paraclete, it would apply to the holy prophet.

There are several things interesting. The first is the statement "almost a translation". the others are found in jesus explination of who the paraclete, paracletos, or thier doctors version, pariclytos, pick one becuase it doesnt matter the word meant the Spirit of God. This is clear when reading the entire john texts. It is clearly the holy spirit, not almost a translation of ahmad.

It is possable, ishmeal could be the father of many arabic peoples, i believe muhamad could have been from that side of the Issac - Ishmeal deal. God did promise hagar that He would make a great nation of ishmeal. Muslims just happen to be prominate in that nationality because of muhammad and what i believe was muhammads understanding of the OT scriptures. And what, i believe, he tried to change for his own benefit . Now there are bassically 5 main sects of muslims, much like denominations, they divide over issues. The "extremests" Thwart many of the techings in the quran. jihad is a big one, my understanding of jihad as taught by muhammad in the quran is that if they are being persucuted they are to fight(jihad) and kill untill there is no more persucution of them. If the persucuters stop then just as god has mercy they should stop killing.

just info. Somewhat pertains.

Edited January 5, 2008 by DjZed

[ayin jade]

shiloh my bible talks about muhhamed (founder of muslim religion) coming from ishmael's line im not debating whether all arab people are born from ishmael im speaking of the muslim nation.....which corrosponds with gods promise to hagar about ishmael.....

To be accurate, you had said your bible's notes make that claim. Its the notes, the words of man, not the word of God, that makes that particular claim. Words of man can be wrong. I think Shiloh presented a good proof that the arabs today, and the religion of islam, are not the descendents of Ishmael.

[patricia1]

in psalm 83 I believe it discusses Islam. In about 645bc from what I remembered in history (biblical) they had not 'left' God but added other Gods which perverted the original belief in God. To me that is the same of leaving God.

I do not agree with Moreys reformist statements, few I do but not all.

The descendants of Ishmail I believe is the reason we remain to have trouble in the middle east. I do believe it started with hagar and sarai and it is a perfect story of what happens when one takes matters into their own hands instead of letting Jesus do things in His perfect timing.

Sorry guys.

[DjZed]

in psalm 83 I believe it discusses Islam. In about 645bc from what I remembered in history (biblical) they had not 'left' God but added other Gods which perverted the original belief in God. To me that is the same of leaving God.

I do not agree with Moreys reformist statements, few I do but not all.

The descendants of Ishmail I believe is the reason we remain to have trouble in the middle east. I do believe it started with hagar and sarai and it is a perfect story of what happens when one takes matters into their own hands instead of letting Jesus do things in His perfect timing.

Sorry guys.

Not to be divisive, but the ishmealites were mentioned as having conspired against isreal because they hated god. I don't see islam mentioned. I did look in my concordance and found no refrence at all to the word "islam."

[Guest shiloh357]

The descendants of Ishmail I believe is the reason we remain to have trouble in the middle east. I do believe it started with hagar and sarai and it is a perfect story of

T what happens when one takes matters into their own hands instead of letting Jesus do things in His perfect timing.

The current middle east conflict has nothing to do with the rivalry between Ishamel and Isaac.

the current conflict is the product of the intolerance of Islam toward the current nation of Israel's existance and its relentless obsession to see Israel wiped off the map, this and the collaboration of the international community with the Islamic world in their joint, irrational hatred of the nation of Israel.

[patricia1]

yes... you are correct there is not the word 'Islam/moslem' mentioned. lets see who we have here.

• Edom~~~Israel's enemy were descendants of esau and never forgave Jacob for cheating thier ancestor from his birthright. Obadish prophesied to the antisemetics
  
• Ishmaelites~~Born of flesh..literally means son of flesh.. Sarai was practicing a Mesopotamia law when she gave hagar to abraham. the mesopatamian practice also stated that if after the birth of the slave girls child the wife gives birth...The slavegirl was NOT to be driven away. But Abraham did obey God.
  

moab~The shittim( moab ) Israel settled here after walking around edom trying to enter the promised land, committed adutery and joined themselves to the moabites Gods who was known for godlessness. Because of Moabs part in the defilement and causing the israelites to sin, she became a washpot for sins judgement and consequence, degrading servitude

Americas first war was against the moslems. It is assumed to be the war of 1812. We fought with the moslems off of africa(North) The tripolitan war was a battle against religions. Muhammad was born in 570 a.d. in mecca. Arabs had worshiped many different Gods but one remained out of the 200 or mor gods was allah, a God from the Quraysh tribe. He ..Mohammod heard a voice and then later was declared to be a prophet of his people. The voice was demonic but if you were to keep going back and back, although there are tremebdous geneologies one might find that although the religion has a different name...the idls have different names the roots will look the same.

Am I making any sense. It is a very in depth study and I wish I was with you. It requires opening of a number of history books. But You know Jesus has the shortcuts...

There is that voice that many proclaim to hear and many erroneous religions and antichristian beliefs come in.

It probably the same voice since the beginning of time. If I am wrong about anything please let me know cos I squeezed my brain about this.... Lol patricia