Praying in tongues

[Guest mcm42]

Reference above reply- & SCRIPTURES---NO SCRIPTURE reference for your

-erroneous ILL-concieved conclusions{they"tongues" are of no use today}

Have we any scripture that shows it is of any benefit today either? I think we're both lacking in that department ... So far all the reasons I've seen for speaking in tongues today, are just as well when done in a normal language, sometimes better.

Why do we assume that a message from the Spirit, or Angels must be in some different language?

[waitingforhim]

Man has free will. If you don't want to be saved, God will let you go to hell. Likewise, is you don't want His grace (charisma) go ahead and live without it. God told us through Paul to keep on being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). He (Jesus) also told us to wait until we are endued with power from on high (Luke 24:49).-Note-He told His disciples not to even begin their ministry until they received this "power from on high"-It was so important to the early church that they sent out disciples to new beleivers making sure they received this-and in fact-we are even told that the way the Jewish believers knew the Gentile believers had received the Holy Spirit-was that they "heard them speaking in tongues". Now, my point is-the speaking in tongues part is only the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit-this has been shown over and over again in scripture and to belittle and say the things of the Lord are of no use-is merely to fulfil the scripture:

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them becasue they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus said, the baptism in the Spirit was a promise from the Father-Acts 1:5-Peter said, "for this promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:39

The initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Spirit is being able to speak in tongues-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:45-46,Acts 19:6 Remember, this baptism is by Jesus IN the Holy Spirit-John even told us-It is He who will baptise you in the Holy Spirit.

Now, when a person is saved-they are drawn to the Lord by the Holy Spirit-it is He (the Holy Spirit) who baptises us into the body of Christ-For by one Spirit were you all baptised INTO one body. Although all who are baptised in the Holy Spirit can pray in tongues, not all are used in the gift of tongues-they are not the same thing.

Now listen carefully to Paul here.

1 Cor 14:4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Cor 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but {even} more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

1. One who speaks in tongues edifies himself - he builds himself up. What does Jude 20 say?

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

2. One who prophesies edifies the church

3. I wish you all spoke in tongues

4. More than that (not instead of that) that you would prophesy

5. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues IN CHURCH unless he interprets.

Did you get that? Prophecy in a church service is equivilent to tongues + interpretation. Paul is not addressing one's private prayer language here - he is addressing the public gift of tongues.

Any believer can have a private prayer language. BUT - not everyone will be called to give a message in tongues during a church service.

Any believer can lay hands on the sick (Mark 16:16-18) but not all are gifted with the gift of healing.

Any believer can teach but not all are gifted as teachers to the body of Christ.

Finally - God is never going to give you something you don't want. So don't worry and lose sleep over this issue of tongues.

[salt and light]

If everybody in a church were believers,there would be no reason to speak in tongues,because Paul said, "Wherefore tongues are a sign,not to them that believe,but to them that believe not....." {1Cor.14:22}. I believe if everybody in a church are all believers,and they're speaking in tongues, there is something wrong. I thought tongues was supposed to cease anyway {1Cor. 13:8}. The speaking in tongues in the pentecostal charismatic type churches today,is not the speaking in tongues of the bible.

[jmwhalen]

No More Tongues-the Body of Christ is not Israel(Failure to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth)

Today, due primarily to the zealousness of the so called Pentecostal denomination, the practice of speaking in tongues (i.e glossalalia), is sweeping the world, and is spilling over into what were once considered to be non-demonstrative religious bodies, e.g. The Methodist, Presbyterians, The Roman Catholics, etc,

This phenomenol rise, in the practicing of so called "charismatic gifts", is no doubt brought about, by the steady decline in church attendance, and the younger generation having turned away from the so called "old time religion" of their parents. Today's youth, have become (understandably) disillusioned, with religion in general, and have succombed, to the un-spiritual direction of their peers! The so called sexual revolution, and the entertainment industries glorification of promiscuity, and other forms of immorality, have set the patterns for the "monkey see", "monkey do" mentality of this present generation of young and old alike.The obvious inability of professing Christendom, to make the biblical message "relevant" has taken it's toll! The obvious hypocrisy of fallen T.V.evangelists, and rampant homosexuality among the Roman Catholic Priesthood, etc, has done it's share, to alienate the entire world from "a meaningful spiritual direction".

Therefore, the Pentecostalists have taken "center stage". But there was a time, in the not too distant past, when those who followed this "denomination" were universally ridiculed and were called "religious fanatics", "holy-rollers", and sundry other unflattering titles. But let it suffice to say, that such worldy rejection has been been greatly reversed! Many other denominations have had to grudgingly admit, that The Pentecostalists have not only sur- vived the decline in denominational membership, but as stated earlier, have all but taken over the denominational scene.

This, was accomplished by "an infiltration" of other more staid denominational bodies, by the forming of "underground", Pentecostally inclined "cells" within them. Sometimes with the Pastor's knowledge and blessing, and sometimes without it..The underground Pentecostal movement, would thereby be gradually introduced into the main body of that particular denomination--in acceptably timed doses.

When, and if, finally accepted, the "clandestine cells", of the Pentecostally indoctrinated would be "openly merged" into the main body of parishoners. It worked. But now, to proceed with this study, and the (dispensational) answer to it.

(1). To deny, that "tongues", (i.e. foreign languages, and foreign dialects) are a portion of Holy Writ, would be absurd. It would be equally absurd. To state that THAT gift of The Holy Spirit was to be given to all dispensations! It will be the prime object of this study, "TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH(2 Tim. 2:15)", in order to determine, (WHEN) the speaking in tongues was given? (WHY) the speaking in tongues was given? (TO WHICH DISPENSATIONAL BODY) the speaking in tongues was exclusively given? (WHEN) the speaking in tongues was abolished? (WHY) the speaking in tongues was abolished?

(2) But in order to arrive at the true doctrinal answers, to the foregoing questions, one must first recognize, and accept, the following doctrinal facts:

(3). That although ALL scriptures are written FOR us. NOT ALL scriptures were written TO us! Therefore, it is possible for one to be "scripturally correct", but "dispensationally wrong". e.g.In Gen Ch 17, circumcision was totally required, while in Gal 5:1-6, and Gal 6:11-15, it is totally forbidden! Why so?

(4). In Heb 1:1, 2 it states."THAT GOD SPOKE, AT DIFFERENT TIMES. TO DIFFERENT DISPENSATIONAL BODIES. AND, IN DECIDEDLY DIFFERENT DISPENSATIONAL MANNERS".

(5). In 2 Tim 2:15, the Apostle Paul, tells (all), "TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE", God's foregoing "different times", different bodies", and different dispensational programs.

(6). In 1 Cor 10:32, Paul tells all (how to) "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" those foregoing different bodies, and their unique dispensational programs, as follows. "GIVE NONE OFFENCE. NEITHER TO (THE JEWS). NOR TO (THE GENTILES). NOR TO (THE CHURCH) OF GOD". There it is.

(7). Paul states, in the foregoing verse,that all mankind, (and all scriptures directed to all mankind), are "RIGHTLY DIVIDED", into the foregoing three, unique, dispensational bodies.i.e. "THE JEWS". "THE GENTILES", and "THE CHURCH".

(8). So. To take any word, verse, chapter, or book of Holy Writ, that is solely directed to but one, of the foregoing 3 dispensational bodies. And to either ignorantly or intentionally, "twist it", to supposedly apply, to one of the other two unique, dispensational bodies. Would make one "AN ASHAMED WORKMAN--DISSAPPROVED OF GOD", i.e.with 2 Tim 2:15 being aptly reversed. While it is indeed true:

(9). "GOD NEVER CHANGES", and "CHRIST JESUS IS THE SAME.YESTERDAY. TODAY, AND FOREEVER"(and no one denys this). But to deny, that God did, and does indeed, change his dispensational programs throughout Holy Writ.Is to deny Heb 1:1, 2, and John 16:12.

(10). Thus, we should be warned. Any word, verse, chapter, or book, of Holy Writ, taken out of context, may be ignorantly, or intentionally used, to supposedly prove a multitude of false dispensational doctrines. But the reverse of course is equally true. Taken in full context, (and) in it's proper dispensational setting;the scriptures can only state one thing, to those who choose "TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE IT". Why so? 1 Cor 1:33 "FOR GOD, IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION".

In light of the foregoing doctrinal facts, let us now examine the doctrine of "speaking in tongues".The earliest reference to "speaking in tongues", (i.e. speaking in foreign tongues and foreign dialects) is as follows:

Isa 28:12 "FOR WITH STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE WILL HE SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE", i.e.solely to The Jewish Nation of Israel, in context. The foregoing (Jewish) prophecy, was "fulfilled", at the annual Jewish Pentecostal Feast of Acts Ch 2, as follows:

Acts 2:1-4 "AND WHEN THE DAY OF PENTECOST WAS FULLY COME, THEY WERE ALL WITH ONE ACCORD IN ONE PLACE. AND SUDDENLY, THERE CAME A SOUND FROM HEAVEN, AS OF A RUSHING OF MIGHTY WIND. AND IT FILLED ALL THE HOUSE WHERE THEY WERE SITTING. AND THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM CLOVEN TONGUES, LIKE AS OF FIRE, AND IT SAT UPON EACH OF THEM. AND THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND BEGAN TO SPEAK, WITH OTHER TONGUES, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE".

That the foregoing "speaking of tongues" was not incoherent babblings, but only different foreign languages, and different foreign dialects, is plainly so stated in Acts 2:6 "NOW WHEN THIS WAS NOISED ABROAD, THE MULTITUDE CAME TOGETHER AND WERE CONFOUNDED, BECAUSE THAT EVERY MAN, HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE". AND THEY WERE ALL AMAZED, AND MARVELLED SAYING. BEHOLD, ARE NOT ALL THESE WHICH SPEAK GALILAEANS? AND HOW HEAR WE EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE WHEREIN WE WERE BORN? WE DO ALL HEAR THEM SPEAK IN OUR TONGUES, THE WONDER- FUL WORKS OF GOD". Now THAT is plain enough, isn't it?

Q. To what unique dispensational body, were the foregoing speaking in foreign tongues directed?

A. Acts 2:5, 9-11 "AND THERE WERE DWELLING AT JERUSALEM, JEWS, DE- VOUT MEN OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. PARTHIAN, AND MEDES, AND ELAMITES, AND THE DWELLERS IN MESOPOTAMIA, AND IN JUDAEA, AND CAPPADOCIA. IN PONTUS, AND ASIA, PHRIGIA, AND PAMPHYLIA. IN EGYPT, AND IN THE PARTS OF LIBYA ABOUT CYRENE, AND STRANGERS OF ROME. Now carefully note this. JEWS AND PROSELYTES", i.e. Gentile converts to Judaism.

Let there be no doubt, from the foregoing verses, and those to follow. That THAT, which was taking place at the (annual) Jewish Feast Day of the Pentecost of Acts Ch 2, was directed (solely) to both local and returning dispersed Jews as The Diaspora, of James 1:1, Peter 1:1, and to their Gentile proselytes to Judaism!

Acts 2:14 "YE MEN OF JUDAEA, AND ALL YE THAT DWELL AT JERUSALEM--".

Acts 2:22 "YE MEN OF ISRAEL--"

Acts 2:36 "THEREFORE, LET ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL KNOW--"

Acts 3:12 "YE MEN OF ISRAEL--".

Acts 4:8 "--YE RULERS OF THE PEOPLE, AND ELDERS OF ISRAEL--".

Acts 5:31 "--TO GIVE REPENTANCE, TO ISRAEL--".

Acts 13:43 "--JEWS, AND RELIGIOUS PROSELYTES--".

Who could read the above, and fail to see and admit. That (dispensationally speaking) the entire Book of Acts was directed (solely) to The Jews of National Israel and their Gentile proselytes to Judahism! Thus, for one to appeal to the events of Acts Ch 2, to teach "GENTILE", or "CHURCH", truth, would be to "WRONGLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH", contrary to Paul's admonition, THAT ALL DO SO, in 2 Tim 2:15.

Peter, explicitly spells out, the exclusively Jewish content of the Acts Ch 2, Pentecostal message, when he stated in Acts 2:16 "THIS, i.e.THIS, taking place at the Pentecost of Acts Ch 2, WAS THAT, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE (Jewish) PROPHET JOEL", i.e.in Joel Ch 2, according to Israel's Old Testament Jewish prophecy. Here, it is of the utmost importance to note. That in Rom 16:25, 26, and Eph 3:1-10, the Apostle Paul plainly stated. That (our) "MYSTERY CHURCH GOSPEL", was "KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN". "WHICH, IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS (NOW) REVEALED", and "WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, HATH BEEN HID IN GOD--", but had never been hid in Holy Writ. Our Church, unlike that of Joel Ch 2, IS AN UNPROPHESIED MYSTERY, only first revealed in and through the Apostle Paul! and as such, it could not possibly have been "in view" in Acts Ch 2, nor throughout the entire Jewish Book of Acts, . Nor was it.

The "CHURCH", or rather "THE ECCCLESIA", or "CALLED OUT ONES", in view, at the Pentecost of Acts Ch 2, was "THE JEWISH CHURCH", started by Moses, at Mt Sinai!

See Acts 7:38, Acts 15:24, and as "identified", in Rev 1:11. Having existed for almost 1, 500 years, that "JEWISH ECCLESIA" was simply "BEING ADDED TO", at The (strictly Jewish Pentecost) of Acts Ch 2. See Acts 2:41, 47, and Acts 4:4.

Here it is important to discover, that The Book of Acts, (is not) the record of the founding of our Mystery Church of Eph 3:1-10, Rom 16:25, 26, but was simply the "re-offering" of Israel's risen Messiah, to National Israel, e.g.Acts 3:12:26. While dying at Calvary, Christ Jesus (as Israel's Highest Priest), offered up His Intercessory, Levitical Prayer of Ignorance, of Num 15:23 when He said. "FATHER FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". (See also Acts 3:17, in context). As

[Guest mcm42]

God told us through Paul to keep on being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). He (Jesus) also told us to wait until we are endued with power from on high (Luke 24:49).-Note-He told His disciples not to even begin their ministry until they received this "power from on high"-It was so important to the early church that they sent out disciples to new beleivers making sure they received this-and in fact-we are even told that the way the Jewish believers knew the Gentile believers had received the Holy Spirit-was that they "heard them speaking in tongues".

First of all, the gift of tongues is not mentioned at all in Ephesians, so to reference Eph 5:18 is essentially to shoot your own foot. This proves that "speaking in tongues" has nothing to do with "being filled with the Spirit".

Second, what happened in the early church (only 3 times I might add) is not something that we are to expect today. This period of time was transitional, and as JM has clearly pointed out, the tongues were mainly for the Jews. Also, every believer has the Spirit, tongues or no tongues.

You can not reference what Christ told the Apostles as something we are to do today. We receive the Spirit, at salavation, period. There is no separate instance. The only times this occured (2 times) in the Bible was with those in Acts 8 and of course when the Spirit first came (acts 2). By no means is this something we are to follow.

Lastly, there are plenty of salvation occurances, and recieving of the Spirit where no tongues are mentioned (I.E. Acts 8 the Spirit is recieved, after salvation and there were no tongues mention there. And numerous other Acts accounts where tongues are not mentioned (I.e anything except 2, 10, 19).

Now, my point is-the speaking in tongues part is only the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit-this has been shown over and over again in scripture and to belittle and say the things of the Lord are of no use-is merely to fulfil the scripture:

Jesus said, the baptism in the Spirit was a promise from the Father-Acts 1:5-Peter said, "for this promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:39

Everyone (except in acts 2 and 8) recieve the Spirit at salvation. No where else are we told that someone recieve the Spirit after they were saved. The believers in 19 did not believe in Christ yet, but the second they did, they recieved the Spirit.

The initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Spirit is being able to speak in tongues-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:45-46,Acts 19:6 Remember, this baptism is by Jesus IN the Holy Spirit-John even told us-It is He who will baptise you in the Holy Spirit.

Now, when a person is saved-they are drawn to the Lord by the Holy Spirit-it is He (the Holy Spirit) who baptises us into the body of Christ-For by one Spirit were you all baptised INTO one body. Although all who are baptised in the Holy Spirit can pray in tongues, not all are used in the gift of tongues-they are not the same thing.

You say that the initial physical evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit is being able to speak in tongues. You site as your proof the ONLY 3 instances this occured. Every other instance there is no speaking in tongues, and in Acts 8 the Spirit is recieved without tongues (cf. 8:14-18).

By your own testimony all ar baptized into one body, so all who are saved are Baptized in the Spirit (today). Not all speak in tongues... so I don't think there is any proof that speaking in tongues is necessary to "prove" one is baptized in the Spirit.

Again I say i see no good reason to speak in tongues, pray with your language, and speak in your own language, if someone can't understand you, get an interpreter or learn the language yourself...

God will respond to you , tongues or no tongues, your own language may not produce the "spiritual high" that you are seeking, and maybe for the better!

[Guest shadow2b]

-Second, what happened in the early church (only 3 times I might add) is not something that we are to expect today. This period of time was transitional, and as JM has clearly pointed out, the tongues were mainly for the Jews.

-HAVE YOU EVER READ ACTS.2.vss.38-39????IF NOT you can NOW----

-Acts.2.vss.38-39-------

-Then Peter said unto them, Repent,and be baptized every one of you in the name

-of JESUS-CHRIST for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY-GHOST...For the promise is unto you,and to your children,and to all that are afar off,even as many as the LORD our GOD shall call..

-Perhaps ONE should read GOD'S WORD FIRST then offer words of teaching which

-have -been clearly understood---Otherwise one teaches as tho they know NOT

-whereof they speak Which usually leads to MIS-understanding--erroneous

-teaching erroneous understanding---Especially when that which is Erroneously

-understood & then erroneoudsly taught is clearly REFUTED by simply reading

-the scriptures---- YUPP YUPP-sounds like a good Idea--

[godrulz]

We can and should pray in the Spirit (tongues) and with our understanding. It is not either tongues or English, but both tongues and English. Why reject something that is in Scripture because you do not fully understand it?

Poor exegesis: I Cor. 13 does not teach that tongues will pass away when the canon is closed or the apostles die. The gifts will not cease until the end of the Age, when we see Him (read the context...knowledge has not passed away yet).

[Guest shadow2b]

-Poor exegesis: I Cor. 13 does not teach that tongues will pass away when the canon is closed or the apostles die. The gifts will not cease until the end of the Age, when we see Him (read the context...knowledge has not passed away yet).

-RIGHT ON BRO.-- no knowledge??duuhhhhh??

-WeLLLLLLL,IN SOME cases "knowledge has passed away"& in a most silly

-manner---yupp"knowledge"died because it was INFECTED with a most vile &

-insideous dis-ease--"terminal IGNORANCE"--The saddest part tho was there was

-a CURE--A remedy that gave instant LIGHT & LIFE----But was adamantly &

-vigorously-Rejected in favour of personal-conjecture--erroneous conclusions--

-personal prejudice--personal bias--hence:personal-individual-denominational-

-"terminal-ignorance"-&-death-deception-destruction---sO sad-sad-sad-

[Guest shadow2b]

-I have another question... If Speaking in Tongues is so important, why was Paul the only one to speak of it? And even then, why didn't He speak of it more often. Surely in writing to the ephesians He would have encouraged them to speak in tongues when they prayed,

-I have a statement then a question for you specifically---IT'S quite apparent that you have NO use for anyone speaking in {an unknown tongue}or for tongues either...the only trouble with such conclusions{as erroneous as they are} is that you really "prove" your knowledge of scripture is severly lacking on this subject....

-THE QUESTION--"IF" ALL the GIFTS OF THE HOLY-SPIRIT are included in Pauls teachings which are:

-1st.Cor.12.vs.7-------

-But the "MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT"is given to every man to PROFIT withal..

-{this verse clearly states that man is NOT speaking---Rather the HOLY-SPIRIT

-is speaking THRU the man/woman}CLEAR--EXACT-PRECISE-& EACH-GIFT is given BY THE HOLY-SPIRIT---NO doubts--NO arguement--NO confusion----

-Gift#1-2---vs.8-

-word of wisdom

-word of knowledge

-Gift#3-4---vs.9-

-faith

-gifts of healing

-Gift#5-6-7-8-9--vs.10-

-working of miracles

-prophecy-

-discerning of spirits-

-divers kinds of tongues

-interpretation of tongues

-vs.11-----

-But all these worketh that one and the selfsame SPIRIT{HOLY},dividing to

-every man severally as HE will....

-NOW--it is the HOLY-SPIRIT that GIVES the GIFTS{giving to EVERY-MAN SEVERALLY} MORE than ONE--it is the HOLY-SPIRIT that SPEAKS thru the man/woman--SO your derision of tongues is NOT speaking against the man/woman or tongues themselves BUT YOU ARE BEING DERISIVE OF--SPEAKING AGAINST ---THE HOLY-SPIRIT HIMSELF------YOU are bringing DISREPUTE to the NAME of JESUS--the HOLY-SPIRIT & HIS GIFTS-to HIS people

-IN essence YOU are MOCKING GOD--JESUS--the HOLY-SPIRIT---

-Consider the case of Pauls salvation on the road to damascus---JESUS appeared to Paul --HIS presence was so powerful it knocked Paul off of his horse-& then

-JESUS SAID "SAUL SAUL WHY ARE YOU PERSECUTING ME??"--Now Saul was not persecuting JESUS--JESUS was in heaven-& Saul was persecuting christians--having them locked up in prison--executed--tortured--YET JESUS ASKED "WHY ARE YOU PERSECUTING ME"

-WHICH Should just SCARE the literal hell right out of YOU---

-Just a few words for you to consider---words of caution--concern--& the brotherly

-advice to be careful of your words---read & STUDY GOD'S WORD on ANY subject

-BEFORE you speak so vehemently Against any thing in HIS WORD--------Gary--

[eric]

Okeydokey, who is right and who is wrong. I speak and pray to my Father multiple times a day seven days a week and I cant recall one prayer that has not been answered according to my wishes, if even if is answered in a different way than I may have anticipated, and when I am speaking to Him I always speak in the language or tongue which was given to me at birth. So why would I want to spoil an excellent relationship, or perfect should I say, with my Lord and Saviour by trying to speak a spooky language that I dont even know myself. I pray to the Lord in English and He blesses my sox off. What a relationship!!! Praise the Lord. I dont need tongues.

eric