Trusting Jesus Posted February 9, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,050 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 22 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/09/1952 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Hi Angelique, The Hebrew word for Hell is Sheol and the word is defined as Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grungekid Posted February 9, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 660 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1990 Share Posted February 9, 2008 What I don't understand is why you'd be send to an eternal Hell. Eternal being the keyword. Even if you lived a saintly life but did not believe in God, then you would get a one way ticket to Hell. Why is that so deserving of unending torture? Why not send people there for awhile so that they learn their lesson? If they had the chance to know their creator, and decided they did not need Him somehow, then doesn't that change things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenwat3 Posted February 9, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 47 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/21/1974 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell. Hi jenwat3, I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way. I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first. I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts. It is the misinformation that I take issue with. With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad. It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this. Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist? Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment. Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable. My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is! ~Neeva Neeva, first I would like to say that I appreciate your tone when discussing this. I have had debates like this before where others weren't half as understanding as you. To cut to the chase, where in scripture does it say "the wicked will burn forever"? It plainly states "the wages of sin is death", not eternal burning. To quote John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Note how the term PERISH here is contrasted with everlasting life? If people actually burned forever, they would still have eternal life! But they PERISH. you guys are talking above me... I am even more confused Sorry, Angelique. The difference between hell and sheol? No difference if you are reading them correctly. Hell in Greek is Hades. One translation is the grave. Same with Sheol in Hebrew. Both simply mean the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grungekid Posted February 14, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 660 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1990 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Sorry, Angelique. The difference between hell and sheol? No difference if you are reading them correctly. Hell in Greek is Hades. One translation is the grave. Same with Sheol in Hebrew. Both simply mean the grave. Yes, but it's important to note eventually Sheol will be emptied into the lake of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~ angelique ~~ Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 665 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/24/1968 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 Sorry, Angelique. The difference between hell and sheol? No difference if you are reading them correctly. Hell in Greek is Hades. One translation is the grave. Same with Sheol in Hebrew. Both simply mean the grave. Yes, but it's important to note eventually Sheol will be emptied into the lake of fire. Good point. The Hebrew word Sheol, and its Greek counterpart, Hades, refer to the "unseen" realm of death, i.e. the grave. The English word "hell" was used by English translations such as the KJV to translate Sheol/Hades, simply because "hell" originally bore the meaning of that which is concelealed, e.g. underground. Thus, for a farmer to "hell" his potatoes was to bury them in the ground. However, these English translations erred in indiscriminantly translating both Gehenna (the lake of fire) and Sheol/Hades as "hell", thus leading to much confusion. The Lake of Fire is not Sheol/Hades, for the latter is destroyed via the former (Revelation 20:14). Why will it be destroyed???? Does that mean people won't be in hell forever????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeva Candida Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/05/1962 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Neeva, first I would like to say that I appreciate your tone when discussing this. I have had debates like this before where others weren't half as understanding as you. To cut to the chase, where in scripture does it say "the wicked will burn forever"? It plainly states "the wages of sin is death", not eternal burning. To quote John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Note how the term PERISH here is contrasted with everlasting life? If people actually burned forever, they would still have eternal life! But they PERISH. Hi jenwat, I am sorry that it has taken me so long to respond. I wanted to try and understand your beliefs a little better before attempting to comment any further. Boy, did that turn out to be an interesting exercise. After compiling a response that extended for more than three pages I stopped and reconsidered. That hardly seemed like the way to go. So, I decided to take a different approach. Instead of trying to persuade you one way or another I tell you what I learned. Your beliefs described thus far seem to fall into a system that is referred to as Conditional Immortality. It is similar to what Annihilationists believe in many ways except one significant one. Annihilationists believe that we are all born with an eternal soul and lose it if we are not saved. CIs believe that none of us are born with immortal souls and only receive one once we are saved. Of course like any belief there are many variations. So, I wouldn't expect your particular beliefs to hold entirely to one category or the other. Rather it only seems to me that you lean more toward the CIs. However, both groups do believe that even though the unsaved will experience some degree of punishment it will not be eternal. They both point to a handful of scriptures to support their beliefs and have developed theories to explain the more inconvenient verses of the Bible. Of course any belief can be accused of the same thing. It would be possible to start listing each verse used by these groups and creating what sounded like well-reasoned and though-out responses. In fact that is exactly what I had started to do when I began wondering what value that would really have. I decided it wouldn't be very profitable at all. I wish I could believe as you do. I have many people that are close to me that I fear are not saved and don't seem inclined to change their minds. It bothers me a great deal to think of the fate that awaits them. If I thought for a moment that their fate would only be temporary I might be able to draw some comfort from that belief. However, I've spent a great deal of time studying and praying over these verses and I keep coming up with the same conclusion...the fate of the unsaved is not temporary and not merely separation from God. One of the most difficult obstacles is that the "inconvenient" verses the CIs and Annihilationists face mostly are spoken by Jesus Himself. In fact many people believe that Jesus spoke of Hell more often than any other biblical figure. That is debatable but one thing is not. He did speak of it and He was usually very specific. His descriptions tend to be the ones that elicit images of a fiery and horrible place of eternal punishment. The verses that are used to suggest that Hell is a temporary condition are generally not the ones that Jesus spoke. So, to accept a belief that proposes this temporary condition one finds themselves having to rationalize what Jesus really meant. Of course this is just my opinion. I recognize that and that is why I decided to keep this post much more condensed than it was originally. I do hope this does not sound like an attack. I have tried to keep things low-key. I appreciate your efforts to keep this from becoming a brawl and wish to do the same. ~Neeva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2008 Sorry, Angelique. The difference between hell and sheol? No difference if you are reading them correctly. Hell in Greek is Hades. One translation is the grave. Same with Sheol in Hebrew. Both simply mean the grave. Yes, but it's important to note eventually Sheol will be emptied into the lake of fire. Good point. The Hebrew word Sheol, and its Greek counterpart, Hades, refer to the "unseen" realm of death, i.e. the grave. The English word "hell" was used by English translations such as the KJV to translate Sheol/Hades, simply because "hell" originally bore the meaning of that which is concelealed, e.g. underground. Thus, for a farmer to "hell" his potatoes was to bury them in the ground. However, these English translations erred in indiscriminantly translating both Gehenna (the lake of fire) and Sheol/Hades as "hell", thus leading to much confusion. The Lake of Fire is not Sheol/Hades, for the latter is destroyed via the former (Revelation 20:14). Why will it be destroyed???? Does that mean people won't be in hell forever????? This is taken from Revelations 20:11-15 The Great White Throne Judgment Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Remember that Hades is also called Hell, and it will be cast into the Lake of Fire, alone with everyone who is not found in the Book of Life. In Him, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Devil and Hell To avoid confusion, why don't we pick this up in your new thread? That way, things won't get confused as to who they are talking with, ok? t. PS- I'm glad you decided to come back and be with us. Personally, I don't think it is by accident. This thread was closed in the Seekers Lounge to avoid confusion as to who people are talking with but I still have some questions. To reference the beginning on the convo read: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=72667 My counselor has been talking with me about God and how I still have a hard time with the whole "God is Love" concept. She says that I see God how I saw my father. With that being said, here are the questions that have not been cleared up concerning the Devil and hell: How is it love to "send someone to hell" because they don't agree with you? I don't understand original sin??? I need more info on this one as it's still fuzzy Someone wrote this: Those who die before reaching the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2008 Angelique, Why will it be destroyed???? Does that mean people won't be in hell forever????? Sheol, the state of death, will be destroyed because death is an enemy of God and all that opposes God will not last forever. Only the Light of God is eternal. The darkness of death will pass. If I were you, I'd try to omit the term "hell" from your covab, since it only causes confusion. Just think in terms of sheol and the lake of fire. Welcome Brother to Worthey! The problem with your suggestion is that shoel is not mentioned in the NT, where hell and hades are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2008 Thanks for the welcome, OneLight. Actually, Hades and Sheol, in Biblical usage, are one and the same! Yes, I know Brother. I was only replying to your statement: "If I were you, I'd try to omit the term "hell" from your covab, since it only causes confusion." The problem is that the word hell is common to the description of hades today, and it is in the bible. We use it in discussions everywhere. To omit it would only cause more confusion. I meant nothing more. OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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