Can believers be un-converted?

[His_Own]

In my opinion, it seems he expected something from Jesus in return for his Faith. This goes against what fiath is. So no wonder this poor gentlemen is lost.

But, there is also a maturing process to consider. Just because he expected something from the Savior is not by itself a deciding factor. I once heard: "It is not how far along you are on your journey, but which direction you are facing." Although we can get clues from words and actions, only our Father knows whether their heart is turned toward Him or away from Him. As far as others are concerned, we must trust Him, for He loves them far more than we are able.

As for our own standing, this has been a comfort to me:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[~~ angelique ~~]

But, there is also a maturing process to consider. Just because he expected something from the Savior is not by itself a deciding factor. I once heard: "It is not how far along you are on your journey, but which direction you are facing." Although we can get clues from words and actions, only our Father knows whether their heart is turned toward Him or away from Him. As far as others are concerned, we must trust Him, for He loves them far more than we are able.

That touches on something to do with my confusion about this topic....... If I am having a hard time getting my old belief structures out of my head... (some I actually still do believe in at this point) then does that mean I am in trouble with God?????

I mean..... Take me for instance, I was Wiccan. I did and believed everthing related to that way of life. It was not a religion to me but a path of life. One can't change a path of life overnight. Does that mean because of this struggle that God would let me go? What kind of security and trust could anyone have in a God would would desert you when you are confused and lost. My natural father out right rejected me and my brothers and sisters. He actually said, "you are not my kids." This is still something that causes me and my siblings much heartache and pain. So, this topic makes me think that God would do just like my natural father. If God says, I never knew you then

[Guest LadyC]

you're not in any danger... God sees your struggle. God isn't going to let you go without a long, long battle. and as long as you have even the slightest concern about whether you could be cut loose, you won't be! the ONLY time God cuts people loose is when their hearts are so hardened that they no longer have any interest in salvation, no longer have any desire whatsoever to be a part of God's family, and no longer feel any conviction or remorse over their sin.

angelique, your heart is nowhere near hardened. your heart is still searching, still seeking, and still yearning to know Him better. chances are, it always will be.

you will never "lose" your salvation. you can purposely throw it away and reject it, but you can NOT lose it. those who turn their back on God to the point of no return don't do it by accident. it takes real effort to reject God once you've known Him.

years ago i still held to the OSAS doctrine, and like you, i lived my life in fear that God would give up on me and that i would lose my salvation... that He would turn me over to my reprobate mind... and when i wasn't fearing that, i was questioning if i was really saved in the first place. i must have alternated between those two states of mind for ten years or more. when God pointed out to me what i have tried to present to you, for the first time i felt total confidence in my salvation. therein lies the security of our faith.

[Guest]

He Is Love

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)

And He Gave His Son To Cleave To

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

And Both The Father And The Son Will Hold You Securely And Forever

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

Amen!

It was not a religion to me but a path of life.

The Believer

Actively Follows The Way

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

Hears The Master's Voice

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:7-12)

Checks Paul's Notes For Living

"See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Rejoice evermore.

Pray without ceasing.

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Quench not the Spirit.

Despise not prophesyings.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." (1 Thessalonians 5:15-24)

Knows The Gift Of Faith Is Just The Bestest Hug From God

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

And Is Forever Assured Because This Affair Comes From The Heart Of The Living LORD

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jeremiah 31:3)

Amen!

Be Blessed Joy Of The Son

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

Be Blessed Temple Of The Holy Spirit

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16)

Be Blessed Beloved Of The Heavenly Father

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. (Numbers 6:24-27)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[tsth]

Dear angelique,

Go to God's Word. He will always let you know through IT.

That is your foundation, in regard to becoming more Christlike. You won't know Him, without IT.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[deut31:12]

You know.. I have been reading everyone's responses and have another question in regards to this topic. As a new believer and a struggling one as well, it's disturbing to think that Jesus would let someone go.

Jesus doesn't wish anybody to go, but if my heart is to no longer serve God then he will let me go.

For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. - 2 Timothy 4:10

Here we have Demas forsaking Christianity because he loved the present world more than God.

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. - John 6:66

As long as we are doing our best to live Christianity Jesus will never leave nor forsake us, but there is nothing that will stop me from leaving Jesus if I don't want walk anymore.

I disagree. The texts you have quoted correspond with what John said about men who "fall away" back to the world.

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

So men like Demas and those who professed to followed Christ but then fell away were in and of themselves never "of us" as John said in the text above. They were manifestations of "tares" in the field as Jesus taught in Matthew 13:24-30. Furthermore, Jesus also said that all of those whom the father had given him he would loose none of them (John 6:39). Peter also declared that we who have been regenerated by the Spirit of God and have been born again have been born of an incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). How can we who have been regenerated and been given a new life be "un-regenerated"?

Unless of course GOD continues the work he finishes (Philippians 1:6).

Burn

They are not "un-regenerated". Nobody can "un-Christian" themselves nor "un-born again" themselves. But, Christians can choose of themselves to walk away from God back into the world of sin.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2:20-22

The scriptures call them "Children of Disobedience".

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:1-6

This is spoken to Christians.

Notice that the Hebrews (to whom the Hebrew letter in the New Testament was written) were HOLY or sanctified brethren. (Heb 3:1), BUT Paul had to warn them against sinning, and against falling from grace by sinning: Heb. 2:2: "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect ..." Heb. 3:12: "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY of YOU an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God."(Note, sanctified brethren could neglect and NOT escape; they could get an evil heart of unbelief and DEPART.)

Heb. 4:1: "Let US therefore fear, lest, a promise being left US of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Revised Standard Version says, "... lest any of you be JUDGED to have FAILED to reach it.")

Edited March 27, 2008 by deut31:12

[exrockstar]

They are not "un-regenerated". Nobody can "un-Christian" themselves nor "un-born again" themselves. But, Christians can choose of themselves to walk away from God back into the world of sin.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2:20-22

The scriptures call them "Children of Disobedience".

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:1-6

This is spoken to Christians.

Notice that the Hebrews (to whom the Hebrew letter in the New Testament was written) were HOLY or sanctified brethren. (Heb 3:1), BUT Paul had to warn them against sinning, and against falling from grace by sinning: Heb. 2:2: "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect ..." Heb. 3:12: "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY of YOU an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God."(Note, sanctified brethren could neglect and NOT escape; they could get an evil heart of unbelief and DEPART.)

Heb. 4:1: "Let US therefore fear, lest, a promise being left US of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Revised Standard Version says, "... lest any of you be JUDGED to have FAILED to reach it.")

agreed.

people forget how God is omniscient. He is all knowing.

He's not going to give salvation to someone that is later going to "give it back."

that is why regeneration is a powerful concept.

you cannot undo something that has been done. That's like me telling my parents that i don't want their

DNA in me. I cannot give that back to them. I was born and that is it.

That goes for the same term "child of God." If you can revoke your salvation then Paul should have said "you're an associate

of God. Maybe even a friend of God."

The gospel of "giving back salvation" is a deadly thing because they rely their salvation status on personal behavior.

[Guest LadyC]

that position that you are taking isn't biblical. God doesn't spend that much time warning against something in His word (not to mention providing so many examples of it) just to play games with our heads.

[exrockstar]

that position that you are taking isn't biblical. God doesn't spend that much time warning against something in His word (not to mention providing so many examples of it) just to play games with our heads.

you ought to know that "grace" is in effect. nothing that you do can satisfy God.

It doesnt matter how holy one feels they are. it doesnt matter how good one can be.

Nothing you do can satisfy God. Not one thing.

What's not biblical is adding scripture saying that "one walks away..."

the relationship is two-fold.

The believer and God.

let's say the believer walks away.

So provide ONE LINE THAT SAYS: God will let go by x amount of days if he doesnt come back?

At what point does God let go? How many months? How many days?

How many sins? How many curse words?

You cannot find it. The relationship is not run by a mortal deciding he is walking away.

It is run by God AND no one tells God what to do and when to do it. "Losing salvation" gospel is falling so far away from grace.

Romans 8:

"38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[BurnForChrist]

They are not "un-regenerated". Nobody can "un-Christian" themselves nor "un-born again" themselves. But, Christians can choose of themselves to walk away from God back into the world of sin.

But there is your problem they CANNOT go back into the world, for how can they? John made this same point in his 1st epistle. I agree that they can't "unregenerate" themselves according to 1 Peter 1:23, but you seem to think that they can go back into the world. How can a new creation act against its nature?

1st John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Now I am not advocating that this teaches sinless perfection for we know that would contradict what John said two chapters earlier (1 John 1:8, 10). But it does teach that those who are born of GOD cannot go back to living in sin all of the days of there life. Yes they can fall into some sort of sin, but GOD will come for them. Why? Because He loves them and WILL discipline them according to Hebrews 12.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2:20-22

The scriptures call them "Children of Disobedience".

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:1-6

This is spoken to Christians.

You are mis-interpreting the text. The "son of disobidience" are not Christians, but those whose lives are marked by fornication, uncleanness, etc. Which in and of itself are marks of a lost unregenerated life. The evidence of ones salvation is not what they did 10 years ago, but what they are doing this very day. Because GOD will complete the good work which he started according to Philippians 1:6.

Notice that the Hebrews (to whom the Hebrew letter in the New Testament was written) were HOLY or sanctified brethren. (Heb 3:1), BUT Paul had to warn them against sinning, and against falling from grace by sinning: Heb. 2:2: "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect ..." Heb. 3:12: "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY of YOU an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God."(Note, sanctified brethren could neglect and NOT escape; they could get an evil heart of unbelief and DEPART.)

Heb. 4:1: "Let US therefore fear, lest, a promise being left US of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Revised Standard Version says, "... lest any of you be JUDGED to have FAILED to reach it.")

Although the author of Hebrews does indeed call them "holy brethren" and "partakers in the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). He makes an important point to them 14 verses later, "For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (Hebrews 3:14). So again I make the point evidence of ones salvation is the continuing work which GOD does in all who are truly regenerated. I will not deny that there are some who look like they have been redeemed, and saved for a season (like in the parable of the sower) IF they fall away, as John said, they "were not of us" for "if they had been of us, they would HAVE continued with us" according to 1 John 2:19. Another example I believe what John is talking about are those whom have whom Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 2:20-22. Because also Jesus made it clear that his sheep will NEVER perish in John 10:28-30. If no one can snatch them out of his hand, and if nothing can seperated from the love of GOD (Romans 8:38-39) how do you expect yourself to?

But my question to you, is what did Jesus then mean in John 6:39 that "this is the will of the father that sent me, that ALL he has given me I should loose none, but raise it up at the last day"?

Burn