Astral Projection - Is it wrong?

[OneLight]

man,

I will answer when I can figure how to do so without posting over the limited amount of quotes.

[Cerebrus]

I've had several of these lucid dreams entirely "by accident" and I really have trouble believing that learning how to induce them on purpose is "evil".

I recovered from crippling knee and wrist pain entirely from using my thoughts and relieving repressed memories. This was after going to countless doctors giving me medicines and recommending even surgery (!). This was something I had to learn, an art if you will. (a book I came upon thanks I believe to my prayers to recover from the condition) Is this wrong too?

Maybe you can clarify this more for me. Are you saying that you healed yourself by some form of lucid dreaming or mind control?

Let me clarify.

Basically what I did was focus my mind on the fact that the pain was not caused by physical means, and I journaled about my emotions and possible emotions that could have caused the pain (the theory was that the pain was created to distract from emotional turmoil).

Has nothing to do with dreams, I'm just giving an example of using the "mind".

I give the credit entirely to the Lord though because I found that book literally in a million-to-one chance.

And no I don't consider myself a "new age" Christian I consider myself a Christian period.

[Guest pasnthru777]

I really don't understand this logic at all. . . .

Besides what I answered above, I need to ask you something?

Have you ever seen a demon?

i first started having these experiences ,in my twentys high on codeine and very depressed,i remember wanting such an experience,read a book about it,i fell asleep and went into the spiritual realm,i got into the experience and liked it so much i started mastering it,i could fall asleep and control when my spirit left my body and where i went,i lived in an old house i thought was haunted,i went into a room in my house ,ghost were playing cards,i joined in,a female ghost got angry at me and her male friend grabed me and soared me through the house,tried to ram my head into the wall. pretified !until i realised we were going through the wall, like ghost do i guess ! i didnt go there anymore,i stoped astrial projection for a while,some time later itried it again,enjoying more practice even watching my body levitate ,liking this power,until i went to a dark place ,i wanted to see if there really was a hell,all i remember is i was surrounded by complete darkness ,just me and darkness,for a split second i thought i was trapped,i left and neaver went back.

im a born again christain,having this past experience myself,i know that i know that i know this experimenting is demonic.

[nebula]

man,

I will answer when I can figure how to do so without posting over the limited amount of quotes.

You break up your response into two or more posts.

[tah]

I really don't understand this logic at all. . . .

Besides what I answered above, I need to ask you something?

Have you ever seen a demon?

i first started having these experiences ,in my twentys high on codeine and very depressed,i remember wanting such an experience,read a book about it,i fell asleep and went into the spiritual realm,i got into the experience and liked it so much i started mastering it,i could fall asleep and control when my spirit left my body and where i went,i lived in an old house i thought was haunted,i went into a room in my house ,ghost were playing cards,i joined in,a female ghost got angry at me and her male friend grabed me and soared me through the house,tried to ram my head into the wall. pretified !until i realised we were going through the wall, like ghost do i guess ! i didnt go there anymore,i stoped astrial projection for a while,some time later itried it again,enjoying more practice even watching my body levitate ,liking this power,until i went to a dark place ,i wanted to see if there really was a hell,all i remember is i was surrounded by complete darkness ,just me and darkness,for a split second i thought i was trapped,i left and neaver went back.

im a born again christain,having this past experience myself,i know that i know that i know this experimenting is demonic.

do not miss this post cerebrus...... You are flirting with disaster for your life... get away ..

run... do not play with this evil ....

Let the Holy Spirit be your guide ...

[nebula]

(I can direct you to the Scriptural basis and support for this if you would like.)

Maybe it's time for some scripture here. What does the Word say?

Actually, this is what I said:

Have you ever had a dream where you realized you were dreaming? Ever notice how sometimes the dream will change course then, or that you were able to manipulate the dream? Well, that's the basis, but it goes beyond that to actually training yourself to control your dreams.

Notice two key words here?

Manipulation

Control

These two words should ring warning bells to any Christian.

Manipulation and control are tricks, tools and temptations of Satan.

(I can direct you to the Scriptural basis and support for this if you would like.)

I was referring to manipulation and control.

Here is something I truly want you to look square in the eye about.

Whenever you are dealing with New age practices, witchcraft, satanism, and the like - the power they teach and grant you is all about manipulation and control.

You don't like your circumstances? Do [this] to manipulate them in your favor.

Don't like the way things are going? Do [this] to control them.

It is what the Snake gave Eve in the Garden of Eden - eat this, and you can manipulate and control ("be as God").

But what does the Lord call you to do?

Are the gifts He gives for the purposes of manipulation and control?

Are His words meant to be used in order for you to manipulate and control?

Rather, is not the way of the Lord for you to surrender your will, your power, your ways, your desired outcome to Him?

This is what I mean - do you need the Scriptural references for what I am saying here?

[OneLight]

I've had several of these lucid dreams entirely "by accident" and I really have trouble believing that learning how to induce them on purpose is "evil".

I recovered from crippling knee and wrist pain entirely from using my thoughts and relieving repressed memories. This was after going to countless doctors giving me medicines and recommending even surgery (!). This was something I had to learn, an art if you will. (a book I came upon thanks I believe to my prayers to recover from the condition) Is this wrong too?

Maybe you can clarify this more for me. Are you saying that you healed yourself by some form of lucid dreaming or mind control?

Let me clarify.

Basically what I did was focus my mind on the fact that the pain was not caused by physical means, and I journaled about my emotions and possible emotions that could have caused the pain (the theory was that the pain was created to distract from emotional turmoil).

Has nothing to do with dreams, I'm just giving an example of using the "mind".

I give the credit entirely to the Lord though because I found that book literally in a million-to-one chance.

And no I don't consider myself a "new age" Christian I consider myself a Christian period.

What is the name of the book that had helped you use your mind to heal your knee and to relieve you of your emotional turmoil? Sounds something like The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peel.

[OneLight]

Part 1 of 2

You won't find the words lucid dreaming, not new age, in the scripture, but they are here.

If you can't find reference to this in scripture, aren't you in fact making up a doctrine?

You cut my explanation by sentencing. Clever. OK ... show me where in the sentence above I stated any doctrine?

I can no more bring in scripture to show you it is wrong then you can to show me it is right.

I never said it was right, I never said it was wrong.....I just said it happens. I never asked for it...I never studied for it...I never prayed for it. I have a limited ability to control my dreams.....I don't see the sin there.

And I never said that having a lucid dream was wrong. Manipulating your dreams by the techniques being offered by certain teachers in order to become more "selfness" is taking and giving yourself to a false belief, where they teach you can become a better person by doing so. God is the only good teacher. The rest falls far short of Him.

You will, however, find false teaching in the scriptures.

I'm sorry but you will not find false teaching in scripture. I'm sure you meant warnings against false teachings.

I should of place quotation marks around the word. Sorry if I confused you.

I don't believe I'm trying to push this on anyone. So if you're labeling me.....please don't.

If you find this offensive, it is not because of my words. I never called you a false teacher. Those who teach false beliefs are false teachers.

Tell me, why would a Christian need to find out more of their "self" when they have laid their "self" down for the Lord?

Can you show me where this is a sin and not just your opinion?

Jesus said to him,

[OneLight]

Part 2 of 2

It is to you, but not to me. Don't you have a thread that addresses your need for solitude? Are you not satisfied where God placed you?

Look, I really don't want to get into an argument over this....it's dumb.

Fantasy Fulfillment.....as long as I don't take it down that sexual road, I think I'll be ok.

No, it is not dumb. I'm sure if it were, you would not waste your time with it.

First, my thread about solitude is to fast and pray, to get closer to God, which we are told to do in scripture. Fantasy is make believe, a place where someone goes that is not real. There is a huge difference between fantasy and solitude.

If I can do things in my dreams that I can't in real life, where's the harm in that? Just because you think it's bad, does not make it bad.

Remember, it is what you do with it, and the reasona why that makes it bad. Watching TV is not bad, but watching a New Age program on TV for guidance is bad.

"Emotional healing" would also mean that you are not trusting God to help and that you do not have the fruit of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Have you ever been to the doctor? Have you ever taken asprin or something for a cold or flu? Have you ever been vaccinated? These might not fall under the heading of "Emotional Healing", but you still sought help from a source other than God. Did you not have the fruit of the Spirit or am I just being nitpicky?

Emotional and physical are two very different factors you are discussing ... apples and oranges. Show me where the fruit is discussing any part of the physical ... well, maybe long suffering.

Tell me, how is this honoring God?

Tell me how you honor God in your sleep?

He gives us (old men) dreams. If we manipulate them in any way, would they be from Him? As I mentioned before, it=f you happen to have a lucid dream and are not trying to induce lucid dreaming as a form of bettering yourself, then there is no issue. It happens.

This is seeking through New Age what God has already given you.

How do you know these are not God given abilities? I'm not saying they are, but how can you say they're not?

If they were from God, don't you think He would of instructed us to practice them to become better at it and use them to be more like Him?

You make the assumption that I'm into this New Age thing. I've got over 2000 posts on these boards. Go and read'em. You won't find an inkling of this "New Age" theology you speak of.

I never said you were into new age. You asked questions about my belief as to how this is new age and I told you. PLease, don't make this into something it is not. I have not labeled you in any way.

As I said before, I don't try to do what I do....it just comes to me. I don't ask for it, I don't pray for it, I don't go looking for ways to enhance my sleeping experience.....it's just there.

Check this out...

Acts 2

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17

[Guest man]

Here is something I truly want you to look square in the eye about.

Whenever you are dealing with New age practices, witchcraft, satanism, and the like - the power they teach and grant you is all about manipulation and control.

Why do you assume that I'm into witchcraft and satanism? I don't understand where that's coming from.

Because I dream and am able to control those dreams to a certain extent, you brand me a child of satan.

That's just crazy. You know nothing about me except for what I've posted on these boards. Is there anything in all those posts that would lead you to believe that I am of the devil?

You don't like your circumstances? Do [this] to manipulate them in your favor.

Don't like the way things are going? Do [this] to control them.

When we pray, aren't we in fact asking God to manipulate circumstances in our favor? Yeah I know God's the One who's doing the manipulating, but I'm the one who asks that it be done. So I'm the one who's causing it.

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I had this dream back in 92...

There were to giant columns made of stone. They were identical. As I was looking at them, an arm came out of nowhere and knocked out the base of these columns. They came crashing straight down. The dream ended. Total length of the dream was maybe 5 seconds and it was totally silent.

I thought it had something to do with the Antichrist and the False Prophet. After what happened on 9/11 I'm not so sure.

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Here's another dream I had in 92.....

I was watching the weather on tv. The weatherman pointed to a tiny little cloud in Arizona and said this as he moved his finger across New Mexico, Oklahoma to the Mississippi river and then up the river and stopped around Iowa, "This little devil is going to all the way up here". That summer, the area he pointed too experienced one the worst floods in recorded history. Again, the dream was maybe 5 seconds long.

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The night the U.S. invaded Iraq, I saw this....

This took place in a mountainous region. The color of the soil had a reddish tint to it. There was a group of white lambs, around 10 or 15, standing next to a railroad track. This little herd of lambs parted and out of the center walked a black lamb and it had 1 horn growing out of the center of it's forehead. Again, totally silent and about 5 seconds long.

Does it mean anything? I think it does, but I haven't figured it out yet.

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I had one that only showed a map of the United States. The state of Michigan was blacked out, while all the other states were the same color. Again, short and silent.

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I've had other dreams similar to those. I don't mess with those. I couldn't if I tried. These dreams stay with me. I remember them as if I had them last night.

I don't really remember any of my regular dreams, bits and pieces but that's about it.

I never asked for any of this. It's there and it happens and I'm not going to ignore it.

Someone asked another here if they've ever seen a demon. I've never seen one but I've felt it. I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy. You know what got rid of it? Prayer.

The devil comes to me in my sleep, I'm not stupid. If he can't make me stumble while I'm awake, he'll crawl into my head while I'm sleeping. I've prayed for His protection many times, and He's never let me down. There are things I struggle with in my walk, and if I'm able to overcome them when I'm awake, they will come to me in my dreams. My manipulation and control of my dreams is one way for me to get away from those things.

If you want to say I'm into witchcraft and satanism, that's up to you. I know myself and where I stand with God. I don't claim to be the most righteous person on earth, but I'm trying and that's all I can do.

do you need the Scriptural references for what I am saying here?

Sure why not.

I'd like to hear what the Word says concerning dreams and the control of them.