Grace

[Mr_Coffee]

Grace is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God, as seen in the verse below.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

To me grace in unearned unmerited favor.

Grace is Christ Jesus

Amen

[eric]

Rebel, just a portion of your last post..........

Faith is good, yet it is the beginning, not the purpose and be all of all itself. Sincere belief

begins the more determined efforts for ones caring of others and right-doing. Jesus is not

about his own worship, but the rescue of humankind from death and suffering and

sickness. This needs belief in what he is saying, not to exalt the messenger, but so we

regard his message. We judge the message also by the messenger, and trust/belief in

Jesus will serve trust and belief in his message, which is his Holy purpose.

Are you implying that Jesus was just God's messenger? Could you please inform us which denominational church you attend. I have always believed that Christ's main role was to reconcile man back to God by the regeneration of His soul through salvation, by repentance after being convicted by the Holy Spirit that we require a Saviour. Probably not the way that some might word it, but it is late at night and way past my bedtime.

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever belieth on Him would not preish, but have everlastimg life.

[OneLight]

This is good and true insight, as I agree, yet for me it was suffering which turned me to God. I looked early in my life to Moses, and years later to Jesus. My experience with and

understanding of Grace comes mainly from a mystical conversation towards God.

In the course of my comments, a faceless male wearing a rich-green robe and golden

medallion appeared before my Souls eye and then a 'bolt' of virtue struck my mind's eye

(center forehead). It shocked me, yet had no suffering/pain, and upon waking the next

morning I noticed so remakeable and unequaled a peace and clarity and kindness in my Soul. I realised this gift was Grace.

I have placed in bold and underlined pieces of your post. Will you explain what your understanding is on them?

You also have not answered my previous questions ...

TheRebel,

Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

I ask because your posts are very confusing and you are confused by Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

In His Love,

Alan

[RabbitDad]

Grace to me means that I can look at my past behavior and/or emotional baggage, own my issues, and move forward without shame. It means I can look inward, let God see what hurtful way there is in me, and be led in the way that is everlasting. It means not being ashamed because Christ removed my shame, because without that, I would not be able to face these things.

It means I can therefore have life now, not just in the next life.

[OneLight]

OneLight:

Your request I greatly detail my faith to you for what appears to

intend to be for your approval is noted, however I claim my faith a

personal possession and I won't be relentlessly interrogated about it.

My faith is built from the direct statements in the Gospels of what Jesus

is reported to have said, taught, and done. If what you'ver seen of my

faith sofar is not german/protestant-church orthodoxy, take it up with

Jesus! My trust is in him, not in Paul nor Luther.

I asked you three simple questions that only require a yes or a no. Why are you so evasive? None of you previous posts have answered any of these.

1. Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?

2. Do you believe in the Trinity?

3. Do you believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God?

Please answer these questions.

OneLight

[RabbitDad]

OneLight:

Your request I greatly detail my faith to you for what appears to

intend to be for your approval is noted, however I claim my faith a

personal possession and I won't be relentlessly interrogated about it.

My faith is built from the direct statements in the Gospels of what Jesus

is reported to have said, taught, and done. If what you'ver seen of my

faith sofar is not german/protestant-church orthodoxy, take it up with

Jesus! My trust is in him, not in Paul nor Luther.

I asked you three simple questions that only require a yes or a no. Why are you so evasive? None of you previous posts have answered any of these.

1. Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?

2. Do you believe in the Trinity?

3. Do you believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God?

Please answer these questions.

OneLight

I'd ask for a definition of "Trinity" at this point. Is it:

1. Three separate persons who are not the same "God", or

2. Three manifestations (i.e. Creator/Father, Savior/Human, Spirit) of one God?

There are needless haggles between various denominations/sects over this point.

[OneLight]

OneLight:

Your request I greatly detail my faith to you for what appears to

intend to be for your approval is noted, however I claim my faith a

personal possession and I won't be relentlessly interrogated about it.

My faith is built from the direct statements in the Gospels of what Jesus

is reported to have said, taught, and done. If what you'ver seen of my

faith sofar is not german/protestant-church orthodoxy, take it up with

Jesus! My trust is in him, not in Paul nor Luther.

I asked you three simple questions that only require a yes or a no. Why are you so evasive? None of you previous posts have answered any of these.

1. Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?

2. Do you believe in the Trinity?

3. Do you believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God?

Please answer these questions.

OneLight

I'd ask for a definition of "Trinity" at this point. Is it:

1. Three separate persons who are not the same "God", or

2. Three manifestations (i.e. Creator/Father, Savior/Human, Spirit) of one God?

There are needless haggles between various denominations/sects over this point.

This one:

1 John 5:6-8

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

[Matthitjah]

OneLight:

Your request I greatly detail my faith to you for what appears to

intend to be for your approval is noted, however I claim my faith a

personal possession and I won't be relentlessly interrogated about it.

My faith is built from the direct statements in the Gospels of what Jesus

is reported to have said, taught, and done. If what you'ver seen of my

faith sofar is not german/protestant-church orthodoxy, take it up with

Jesus! My trust is in him, not in Paul nor Luther.

Grace to you Rebel,

So what has the direct statements in the Gospels directed you to do regarding Faith in Jesus Christ?

Who is He?

Peace,

Dave

[RabbitDad]

OneLight:

Your request I greatly detail my faith to you for what appears to

intend to be for your approval is noted, however I claim my faith a

personal possession and I won't be relentlessly interrogated about it.

My faith is built from the direct statements in the Gospels of what Jesus

is reported to have said, taught, and done. If what you'ver seen of my

faith sofar is not german/protestant-church orthodoxy, take it up with

Jesus! My trust is in him, not in Paul nor Luther.

I asked you three simple questions that only require a yes or a no. Why are you so evasive? None of you previous posts have answered any of these.

1. Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?

2. Do you believe in the Trinity?

3. Do you believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God?

Please answer these questions.

OneLight

I'd ask for a definition of "Trinity" at this point. Is it:

1. Three separate persons who are not the same "God", or

2. Three manifestations (i.e. Creator/Father, Savior/Human, Spirit) of one God?

There are needless haggles between various denominations/sects over this point.

This one:

1 John 5:6-8

This is He who came by water and blood

[BlindSeeker]

I John 5:7 is a verse that is historically on very shaky ground -

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

Verse 7. There are three that bear record] The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or logov, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY GHOST, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, AEthiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, &c., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the *Vulgate [Catholic translation]; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:-

"6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, &c."

The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:-

[ln heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth.]

To make the whole more clear, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in brackets.

"6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. 8. And there are three that bear witness in earth,] the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, &c." Any man may see, on examining the words, that if those included in brackets, which are wanting in the MSS. and versions, be omitted, there is no want of connection; and as to the sense, it is complete and perfect without them; and, indeed much more so than with them. I shall conclude this part of the note by observing, with Dr. Dodd, "that there are some internal and accidental marks which may render the passage suspected; for the sense is complete, and indeed more clear and better preserved, without it. Besides, the Spirit is mentioned, both as a witness in heaven and on earth; so that the six witnesses are thereby reduced to five, and the equality of number, or antithesis between the witnesses in heaven and on earth, is quite taken away. Besides, what need of witnesses in heaven? No one there doubts that Jesus is the Messiah; and if it be said that Father, Son, and Spirit are witnesses on earth, then there are five witnesses on earth, and none in heaven; not to say that there is a little difficulty in interpreting how the Word or the Son can be a witness to himself."

It may be necessary to inquire how this verse stood in our earliest English Bibles. In COVERDALE'S Bible, printed about 1535, for it bears no date, the seventh verse is put in brackets thus:-

And it is the Sprete that beareth wytnes; for the Sprete is the truth. (For there are thre which beare recorde in heaven: the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) And there are thre which beare record in earth: the Sprete, water, and bloude and these thre are one. If we receyve, &c.

TINDAL was as critical as he was conscientious; and though he admitted the words into the text of the first edition of his New Testament printed in 1526, yet he distinguished them by a different letter, and put them in brackets, as Coverdale has done; and also the words in earth, which stand in 1Jo 5:8, without proper authority, and which being excluded make the text the same as in the MSS., &c.

Two editions of this version are now before me; one printed in English and Latin, quarto, with the following title:-

The New Testament, both in Englyshe and Laten, of Master Erasmus translation-and imprinted by William Powell-the yere of out Lorde M.CCCCC.XLVII. And the fyrste yere of the kynges (Edw. VI.) moste gratious reygne.

In this edition the text stands thus:-

And it is the Spirite that beareth wytnes, because the Spirite is truth (for there are thre whiche beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Worde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) For there are thre which beare recorde, (in earth,) the Spirite, water, and blode, and these thre are one. If we receyve, &c.

The other printed in London "by William Tylle, 4to; without the Latin of Erasmus in M.CCCCC.XLIX. the thyrde yere of the reigne of our moost dreade Soverayne Lorde Kynge Edwarde the Syxte," has, with a small variety of spelling, the text in the same order, and the same words included in brackets as above.

The English Bible, with the book of Common Prayer, printed by Richard Cardmarden, at Rouen in Normandy, fol. 1566, exhibits the text faithfully, but in the following singular manner:-

And it is the Spyryte that beareth witnesse, because the Spyryte is truthe. (for there are three which beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost; and these Three are One) And three which beare recorde* (in earth) the Spirite, and water, and bloode; and these three are one.

The first English Bible which I have seen, where these distinctions were omitted, is that called The Bishops' Bible, printed by Jugge, fol. 1568. Since that time, all such distinctions have been generally disregarded.

Though a conscientious believer in the doctrine of the ever blessed, holy, and undivided Trinity, and in the proper and essential Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which doctrines I have defended by many, and even new, arguments in the course of this work, I cannot help doubting the authenticity of the text in question; and, for farther particulars, refer to the observations at the end of this chapter.

* The Vulgate is an early Fifth Century version of the Bible in Latin, and largely the result of the labours of Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382 to make a revision of old Latin translations. Its Old Testament is the first Latin version translated directly from the Hebrew Tanakh, rather than the Greek Septuagint. It became the definitive and officially promulgated Latin version of the Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and ultimately took the name versio vulgata, which means "the published translation". There are 76 books in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate Bible: 46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament, and three in the Apocrypha.