is marrying off 15yr olds and multiple wifes a big deal?

[Axxman]

EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING ...you guys are saying could be, and probably is true. I don't disagree with any of you hardly at all. Although, I think that the article by Laura Chapman (posted by: man) is a little simplistic and one sided

It doesn't for ONE SECOND excuse the fact that the gov't went there to talk to TWO people who were implicated by an anonymous phone call (which turned out to be a hoax) and they ended up spitting up families, and separating mothers from children based on their beliefs. What possible justification could they have had for doing this besides having a previous knowledge of this groups beliefs?

You can't tell me ONE INSTANCE in which a single anonymous phone call claiming abuse has justified a raid of this magnitude...the seperation of families...the removal of children of homes into state custody. If you guys can't see the absolute danger and precident that this is setting I don't know what to tell you. If this happened to a single family we should be upset...let alone 100 families.

There is NO question that the practices of the FLDS are harmful to women and children...I've stated that since my first post in this thread. There is NO DOUBT that this group needs to be dealt with, and disbanded for the good of EVERYONE involved. But we don't allow our gov't to do it this way. We don't arrest people without evidence...and go dig up evidence later. We don't remove kids from homes, en masse, because a few moms look under 18. These people haven't even been charged with a crime for crying out loud...and judge confiscated their cell phoes!!! Its like a Twilight Zone episode or something. Only half of the people in the compound even practice polygamy...they got their kids removed too. A single mom (divorced...yeah...thats right, divorced) had her kids taken away too. This is mass punishment based on ONE THING, and ONE THING only....their religious beliefs.

We let murderers go in this country if their rights are violated...yeah, that stinks...but we make those sacrifices to our safety in order to protect the freedoms our constitution provides. If we can't bust up a small group like Eldorado without trashing the Constitution in the process...then thats a sacrifice we make.

[HisMindinme]

EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING ...you guys are saying could be, and probably is true. I don't disagree with any of you hardly at all. Although, I think that the article by Laura Chapman (posted by: man) is a little simplistic and one sided

1) No one can expect you to agree 100%. I can't expect it of myself or anyone else.

2) Simple or complex, abuse is abuse, wrong is wrong, sin is sin.

3) Are you saying that the article being posted by a man removes credibility or authenticity from the matter? I sure hope not.

It doesn't for ONE SECOND excuse the fact that the gov't went there to talk to TWO people who were implicated by an anonymous phone call (which turned out to be a hoax) and they ended up spitting up families, and separating mothers from children based on their beliefs. What possible justification could they have had for doing this besides having a previous knowledge of this groups beliefs?

1) They did not split up mothers and children based on their religious beliefs. They split them up because mothers were turning over thier YOUNG teenage girls for arranged marriages with much older men, which is flat wrong and against the law. They did NOT split them up over disagreements with religious beliefs at all. Tha is a fiction in your mind.

2) The FACT that the call was a hoax is moot and irrelevant. Once on-site, those officers who are sworn to serve and protect found clear and probable cause of a crime against these young girls and children. Those officers are duty bound and lawfully bound to serve and protect. They are bound to take probable cause and investigate. That the original reason for going there was a hoax is irrelevant. Consider -- if they had arrived there and found NOTHING wrong, they would have been equally duty bound and lawfully bound to apologize and leave. The fact that they remained and followed through is based on evidence and not conspiracy theories or lack of repect for the constitional "rights" of the people in the compound. Those children have a right to NOT be abused, married, had sex with and be unwitting participants in a "older man sex ring!" Scream about the constitution all you want, but the well-being of those kids is the paramount matter. Moreover, I don't think anyones constitutional "rights" were violated at all.

You can't tell me ONE INSTANCE in which a single anonymous phone call claiming abuse has justified a raid of this magnitude...the seperation of families...the removal of children of homes into state custody. If you guys can't see the absolute danger and precident that this is setting I don't know what to tell you. If this happened to a single family we should be upset...let alone 100 families.

*See answer #2 above.

There is NO question that the practices of the FLDS are harmful to women and children...I've stated that since my first post in this thread. There is NO DOUBT that this group needs to be dealt with, and disbanded for the good of EVERYONE involved. But we don't allow our gov't to do it this way. We don't arrest people without evidence...and go dig up evidence later. We don't remove kids from homes, en masse, because a few moms look under 18. These people haven't even been charged with a crime for crying out loud...and judge confiscated their cell phoes!!! Its like a Twilight Zone episode or something. Only half of the people in the compound even practice polygamy...they got their kids removed too. A single mom (divorced...yeah...thats right, divorced) had her kids taken away too. This is mass punishment based on ONE THING, and ONE THING only....their religious beliefs.

1) What way would you suggest they do "it" (i.e. protect innocent children from abusive, sex-crazed "older men"? Suggest another way. Make the suggestion and use the present "law" of the land to do it. In other words -- put up or shut up! You scream shrill and loud about the constitution and walk right by kids being abused to wave the banner of constitutional rights. I agree that the constitution needs to be upheld, but not to the extent where we ignore common dutiful sense to innocent lives being abused.

2) We take PRECISELY the steps those officers took when they are faced with children being abused in what amounts to a sex-slave-trade system in an in-bred, secretive, hiding, coniving, lying, controlling group of adults. The MEN are 110% culpable and some of the women are as well, to some or to a lesser degree. All your hand waving and hand-wringing over the constitution is not about to stand and fly in the face of the degree of abuse that has been put stop to by the actions of these very fine officers of the law in the great state of Texas!

We let murderers go in this country if their rights are violated...yeah, that stinks...but we make those sacrifices to our safety in order to protect the freedoms our constitution provides. If we can't bust up a small group like Eldorado without trashing the Constitution in the process...then thats a sacrifice we make.

1) We do all sorts of things in this country and make mistakes. We do let murders go to murder again. We let child molesters go to molest again. I understand rights. I understand constitution. I get it. You've made your point. So have I, it seems. End of the story-line is this: Children Well-being -- VS -- Constitutional Rights of Perpetrator Child-molester Adults (aka FLDS Men & Women) -- hmmmmmm ... which one shall I ever choose as the most compelling thing to act upon????

[MorningGlory]

I know most of you have already got the fires burning around the stakes and all...so this is probably going to fall on deaf ears...

From that same article..."Agency officials have called into question claims of adulthood among the girls since the raid and have in some cases disputed documentation provided, saying the girls look younger than 18."

So the federal gov't can now rip apart familes and take children away from mothers, based on the fact that they LOOK younger than 18!!! Is this really all you guys need to hear from a gov't agency...a best guess?

Again...the laws of consent in Texas were changed recently. A girl who is 17 years old today...was legal to consent in 2005 when she was 14. While I would agree with ALL of you that is still too young...it is a complete and total annihilation of the constitution to rip these families apart first...then try to prove something later.

What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

What happened to the right to be SECURE inyour person?

What happened to due process?

What happened to illegal search and seizure?

Say what you want, and believe what you want but teen girls are getting pregnant everyday in this country and NOBODY is going to jail for it, families are not being broken apart for it, the gov't isn't rounding them up...the ONLY reason this is news, and the ONLY reason the gov't made this case different is because of religion. You'd have to be blind, or intentionally looking away, not to see that.

Are we going to start closing EVERY public school that has 2-3 pregnant teens, remove them from their homes, and investigate the whole school for a pattern of abuse? I don't think so. Furthermore...since this abuse seems to be exclusively on girls then why are boys not returned to their mothers. Better yet...what about the single mothers whose ONLY crime is a belief? Can we seriously start punishing people for their beliefs...even if they haven't practiced those beliefs yet?? What a royal mess.

I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with the gov't wanting to shut these people down...but if they can't do it within the confines of the constitution then they have no business being involved in the first place.

While you're entitled to your opinion, Axxman, you have missed the point of this mass removal of children completely. Freedom of religion has NOTHING to do with young girls being forced to 'marry' and bear children. Keeping them there bearing child after child is appalling and is false imprisonment. Turning out young boys to fend for themselves is child abandonment. Even if the age of consent was 14 they are still breaking the law. There's no protection under the Constitution for that. How many people have come forward and told the world what's going on out there? Are they all lying? What about the undercover officer who was living among them. Is he/she lying too?

[Guest man]

I think that the article by Laura Chapman (posted by: man) is a little simplistic and one sided

Maybe you should get in touch with her and tell her that.

She shouldn't be too hard to find.

LAURA CHAPMAN is an advisory board member of Tapestry Against Polygamy.

[Axxman]

1) No one can expect you to agree 100%. I can't expect it of myself or anyone else.

2) Simple or complex, abuse is abuse, wrong is wrong, sin is sin.

3) Are you saying that the article being posted by a man removes credibility or authenticity from the matter? I sure hope not.

Wrong is wrong...but as we've been taught since we were kids...two wrongs don't make a right. Sin is sin...but there is plenty of that going around that we don't allow the gov't to bust up families, and churches over. Concerning the posted article...I would probably agree with it, and find it a fascinating read. My problem with it was its simplicity. Posting it like that doesn't really give credence to the in-depth nature of the problem. Anyone can bust out a paragraph and post a one-sided diatribe about why it was bad. My problem was more with the post...rather than the story of the woman (they all have stories.) The problem in this case is that the men, women, and children involved believe it for a reason. Right or wrong, brainwashed or not, they really believe this is the ONE WAY to achieve glory in Heaven. I just disagreed with the posting of a single paragraph as if "Viola!" there ya go..that settles it!

1) They did not split up mothers and children based on their religious beliefs. They split them up because mothers were turning over thier YOUNG teenage girls for arranged marriages with much older men, which is flat wrong and against the law. They did NOT split them up over disagreements with religious beliefs at all. Tha is a fiction in your mind.

Gotta disagree with ya here. If this were true, if this was all about teenage girls, then why were teenage boys taken too? Why were families with NO girls in them split up? Why were families not participating in polygamous marriages split up? The answer is simple. The were split up because they believed in polygamy. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The gov't split up families based NOT on crimes they had committed...but on crimes they may commit. This is verified by the fact that afte almost a month...still no criminal charges are filed. They did this action to find evidence...not because they HAD evidence. Completely unconstitutional.

2) The FACT that the call was a hoax is moot and irrelevant. Once on-site, those officers who are sworn to serve and protect found clear and probable cause of a crime against these young girls and children. Those officers are duty bound and lawfully bound to serve and protect. They are bound to take probable cause and investigate. That the original reason for going there was a hoax is irrelevant. Consider -- if they had arrived there and found NOTHING wrong, they would have been equally duty bound and lawfully bound to apologize and leave. The fact that they remained and followed through is based on evidence and not conspiracy theories or lack of repect for the constitional "rights" of the people in the compound. Those children have a right to NOT be abused, married, had sex with and be unwitting participants in a "older man sex ring!" Scream about the constitution all you want, but the well-being of those kids is the paramount matter. Moreover, I don't think anyones constitutional "rights" were violated at all.

Okay...I'll bite. What clear and probable cause did they have? I've read the affidavit...I know why they did it. If you think the hoax call is a moot point, I'd bet you're wrong. The only thing good about that call for the gov't is that it gives them a reason to be in the compound at all. They had to investigate the call, so they had a right to be there. They were there to investigate an abuse and the accused wasn't there. What makes you think they have ANY right whatsoever to begin investigating ANYTHING else in that compound? So...again, I'll bite...what probable cause could they have seen while investigating the abuse claim that led to the mass removal of familes.

I would say specifically that this Constitutional "right" was violated for sure..."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

We take PRECISELY the steps those officers took when they are faced with children being abused in what amounts to a sex-slave-trade system in an in-bred, secretive, hiding, coniving, lying, controlling group of adults. The MEN are 110% culpable and some of the women are as well, to some or to a lesser degree. All your hand waving and hand-wringing over the constitution is not about to stand and fly in the face of the degree of abuse that has been put stop to by the actions of these very fine officers of the law in the great state of Texas!

So explain the fact that Dale Barlow (the originally accused abuser in the hoax call) hasn't even been arrested, charged with a crime...nor will he be! The fact that you keep calling this an "older man sex ring" or a "sex slave trade system" gives away the fact that you know very little about this group. This isn't about the sex...its about the principle! Its about having babies. The perfect sexual experience for them is getting pregnant EVERYTIME they mate. They have so many rules attached to the act of sex it is virtually unenjoyable for anyone. They are not doing this so they can "hook up" with a different girl everyday. Flawed as it may be...this is a matter of deep spiritual conviction for them.

1) We do all sorts of things in this country and make mistakes. We do let murders go to murder again. We let child molesters go to molest again. I understand rights. I understand constitution. I get it. You've made your point. So have I, it seems. End of the story-line is this: Children Well-being -- VS -- Constitutional Rights of Perpetrator Child-molester Adults (aka FLDS Men & Women) -- hmmmmmm ... which one shall I ever choose as the most compelling thing to act upon????

Well, I'll give you that much. It does seem the compelling/emotional choice to protect the women and children over the rights and freedoms of millions and millions of Americans. I'll be honest with you (in reply to your "put up or shut up" comment) ...I don't have all the answers. I don't know the perfect solution to solving the FLDS problem. Maybe if I made $100k a year and was put in charge of it I'd come up with something...but at this point its not my job. If it was my job I wouldn't bend or break the Constitution to do it...thats for sure. Thats my concern here. It may be easy for some of you to be shortsighted and pretend like little forays into unconstitutional actions "for the good of a particular group" is a good thing. I can't do that. We either have Constitutional rights that protect us from the govt, or we don't.

This isn't an easy case. If the gov't wins...the children are safe BUT the gov't has made inroads in how they can interfere with our own abilities to raise our children in our beliefs. If the FLDS wins...we have secured our rights, but the children are NO SAFER and the gov't will have a MUCH more difficult time in breaking this cult apart. All of this because they couldn't figure out a way to do it without making such a HUGE mess.

These people are not under arrest.

They have not been read their rights or charged with a crime (as yet). They are still gathering evidence "after" the fact...lol

Nursing mothers are to be separated from their infants because a feminist judge states that 'working women do it all the time after 6 weeks' in order to return to the work force.

They are not allowed to pray without monitors. (1st amendment)

They are not allowed to assemble. (1st amendment)

A grand jury must provide an order to collect dna. No Grand Jury has been convened in this instance either pre or post raid.

The 'abuse' at this time is alleged hearsay allegations from a non-existent girl.

The safety from 'yet to occur' abuse is based on what the cps workers 'believe' might occur. It is not based on fact.

[MorningGlory]

The fact that you keep calling this an "older man sex ring" or a "sex slave trade system" gives away the fact that you know very little about this group. This isn't about the sex...its about the principle! Its about having babies. The perfect sexual experience for them is getting pregnant EVERYTIME they mate. They have so many rules attached to the act of sex it is virtually unenjoyable for anyone. They are not doing this so they can "hook up" with a different girl everyday. Flawed as it may be...this is a matter of deep spiritual conviction for them.

This is one of the sickest statements I have ever read in my life.....these girls aren't MARES! They are human beings and, as such, should be taken out of there no matter who it hurts. How in the world do you know this stuff anyway??? It's a cult; they aren't giving interviews about their secret rites. And their 'deep spiritual convictions' have produced hundreds, maybe thousands of children, out of wedlock, whose family trees are so messed up that only God can figure them out; this is due to incest. Half of those kids don't even know their own last names!

[Guest man]

My problem with it was its simplicity. Posting it like that doesn't really give credence to the in-depth nature of the problem. Anyone can bust out a paragraph and post a one-sided diatribe about why it was bad.

It was one sided because she was a part of that mess at one time.

Who better to tell what it's about then someone who lived it?

Ephesians 5

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

[Guest man]

FLDS polygamy sect gets a closer look - and it's chilling

With their long braids and old-fashioned dresses, the women of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Texas project an image of clean-scrubbed, prairie wholesomeness.

Given that these women and their children look like they

[HisMindinme]

The fact that you keep calling this an "older man sex ring" or a "sex slave trade system" gives away the fact that you know very little about this group. This isn't about the sex...its about the principle! Its about having babies. The perfect sexual experience for them is getting pregnant EVERYTIME they mate. They have so many rules attached to the act of sex it is virtually unenjoyable for anyone. They are not doing this so they can "hook up" with a different girl everyday. Flawed as it may be...this is a matter of deep spiritual conviction for them.

This is one of the sickest statements I have ever read in my life.....these girls aren't MARES! They are human beings and, as such, should be taken out of there no matter who it hurts. How in the world do you know this stuff anyway??? It's a cult; they aren't giving interviews about their secret rites. And their 'deep spiritual convictions' have produced hundreds, maybe thousands of children, out of wedlock, whose family trees are so messed up that only God can figure them out; this is due to incest. Half of those kids don't even know their own last names!

Oh how I agree!! I cannot believe this person is actually defending these men and women. Unreal.

[Axxman]

This is one of the sickest statements I have ever read in my life.....these girls aren't MARES! They are human beings and, as such, should be taken out of there no matter who it hurts. How in the world do you know this stuff anyway??? It's a cult; they aren't giving interviews about their secret rites. And their 'deep spiritual convictions' have produced hundreds, maybe thousands of children, out of wedlock, whose family trees are so messed up that only God can figure them out; this is due to incest. Half of those kids don't even know their own last names!

The statement wasn't supposed to be liked...it was presented as a fact. If people insist on joining in this convo without knowing what they are talking about and acting like this is a big sex orgy for old men...I think someone should be here to tell the truth about it. The truth is that while it is sick, wrong, and sinful...they are not doing it for the sex. They are doing it to have babies in order to achieve Heavenly glory. How do I know this stuff anyway??? Well to be completely honest...its not that difficult. There are numerous books on the topic. I hate to keep bringing up the fact that I am the one who suggested "Shattered Dreams" by Irene Spencer ( I just completed reading it.) She broke away from the group. I've also read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop, "Daughter of the Saints" by Dorothy Solomon, and "Inside the World of Warren Jeffs" by Carol Western. I've also studied the doctrines and beliefs of the both the LDS and the FLDS (although they are largely the same except FLDS ONLY uses scriptures before 1890.)

I have not read ONE book or account from these women that compared their lives to a sex filled orgy for old men! It simply isn't true. The vast majority of these women feel alone and abandoned...not used and abused sexually. Of course, NONE OF THIS makes a difference...they are still wrong. I understand why this is emotional as well. You cannot blame me if someone says something that is factually wrong (keeps repeating it actually)...and I set this issue straight.

BTW...I suggested "Shattered Dreams" because it follows the life of one womans struggles in polygamy from the perspective of she really wanted it to work, she believed it wholeheartedly. I will say that "Inside the world of Warren Jeffs" is equally fascinating in that its closer to the man from the viewpoint of different women who dealt with the high leadership.