Answering Questions

[ParanoidAndroid]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

When I read this in another Forum, I found myself restating the gospel, attempting to show how necessary Jesus' sacrifice was, but at every turn, this one sentence can counter any claims of Christ's sacrifice. Any thoughts on how we might approach this statement when dealing with it from non-Christians?

Any and all thoughts appreciated

~ PA

[artsylady]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

He's not saving us from Himself.

He sacrificed his son, not himself.

The trinity is a difficult concept.

[Fraught]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

When I read this in another Forum, I found myself restating the gospel, attempting to show how necessary Jesus' sacrifice was, but at every turn, this one sentence can counter any claims of Christ's sacrifice. Any thoughts on how we might approach this statement when dealing with it from non-Christians?

Any and all thoughts appreciated

~ PA

'the wages of sin is death'. this is not a rule; it is a governing truth such as the law of gravity or of entropy, etc.

the goal is not to save us 'from God'. it is to save us from death. what is the last enemy that Jesus will put under his feet? death.

the 'rule' here instituted is that a substitution can be provided to die in our place. (this idea must have been in place forever since you see it in so many myths and 'b' movies - i.e. "king kong", not to mention even abel as recounted by moses in the book "genesis".)

[Hunterpoet]

I read and re-read your post.

(paraphrase) it is a waste of time to cast pearls before swine.

[EricH]

It is not that God invented some arbitrary rules then set out to fulfill them. God has essentia character qualities (attirbutes) any action He takes is conditioned by all of those qualities. So when humans decided to sin and became separated from God, any solution God came up with to solve the problem had to be in accordance with all of His attributes (love, justice, holiness etc). His decision to bear the penalty for the sins of humanity was the only possible decision that could be made that would satisfy all of His essential character qualities

[AL_Pond]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

When I read this in another Forum, I found myself restating the gospel, attempting to show how necessary Jesus' sacrifice was, but at every turn, this one sentence can counter any claims of Christ's sacrifice. Any thoughts on how we might approach this statement when dealing with it from non-Christians?

Any and all thoughts appreciated

~ PA

The apostle Paul tells us that before the law there was no sin. Then came the law, which could not save us, it only convicted us and showed us our sins. No one could live a life free from sin in order to be saved by the law. Jesus came in order to become the perfect sacrifice, that through his death and resurrection, anyone who accepted him as savior might also be saved and resurrected into eternal life. Jesus also preached to the captives, those who had died under the law, that they too might have the same salvation as us. We are saved by grace, through Jesus' sacrifice, not by obedience to the law. Grace has freed us from the law.

God did all of this in order that we might live and not suffer eternal damnation.

[Guest]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

When I read this in another Forum, I found myself restating the gospel, attempting to show how necessary Jesus' sacrifice was, but at every turn, this one sentence can counter any claims of Christ's sacrifice. Any thoughts on how we might approach this statement when dealing with it from non-Christians?

Any and all thoughts appreciated

~ PA

Always Start With The Truth - The Bible (And Prayer)

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

And If That One (Balderdash!) Sentence Seems Sweet To Anyone Then This Scripture Maybe Closed To Them But Maybe Not

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

And You Will Sow The Word And Weep For A Season But Joy Will Come In The Morning

They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

Psalms 126:5-6

You May Weep When You See This Truth Is Lost

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:18

And This Truth Is Smeared And Slandered

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:23

And This Truth Is Mocked With Hate

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

And This Fact Is Not Revealed

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36

But The Holy Ghost Is Able

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

John 16:7-11

To Do The Impossible With God's Holy Word

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:26:27

To Slice Open The Sepulcher Of Dead Stone And Let Shine In The Glorious Gospel Of Christ, To Create A Living Heart Of Love

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12

God Is Good! (Alway)

Hallelujah!

Amen

[ParanoidAndroid]

Thanks for the replies guys, these are all things I have considered, and even at times used, to varying degrees.

Artslady - I agree with you completely, but try telling the difference to a non-Christian hell-bent (no pun intended) on proving us wrong that Jesus and God aren't the same when the Trinity says that they are (different, yet the same - even Christians have trouble with taht one).

Fraught - how do you tell a non-Christian that the Creator of the world did not create the rules that govern the world (surely that means he isn't God, right)? Naturally I know that this is wrong, but from a non-Christian perspective......

Hunterpoet - agreed

EricH - I see what you're saying, but by taking this line of reasoning, it also makes it out as if our God is confined by rules and regulations beyond his control. We know that this is the nature of God, and God's nature does not change, but from a non-Christian point of view, God can change any laws he so wishes at any time, or else he isn't God.

Al_Pond and FresnoJoe- while theologically correct, I don't think your post helps in any way to dispel the comment originally in this thread. It also hinges on the belief that the Bible is true. If we take the non-Christian view that it is not, then any comment we make cannot in any way combat the original statement that I've been trying to answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for all your attempts, guys, and I know from all of us who believe these responses will be AAAA++++ responses - I agree with you, in all respects. But to non-believers, it's not quite the same. Every time I've tried answering this question, we come back to the general principle - "he's God - he can do anything". And when we say he's boudn by his characteristics, then that leads to "then he can't be God because God would not be bound by such petty human emotions"..... and so on and so forth.

Needless to say, I've had these conversations repeatedly with certain people, and they always go around in circles, going nowhere. I think for the most part, it comes down to people's hardened hearts. These people have hardened their hearts. Despite being on a spirituality forum, they're not really searching, but rather finding ways to justify their own beliefs. Against that, unless God softens their hearts, all we can do is to continue to preach the truth in all honesty and leave the rest in prayer to God.

Thanks for the responses, anyway. All the best, folks

[Smalcald]

I believe that apologetics are for Christians, those who already have faith and wish to strengthen thier faith intellectually. The Gospel and the Word itself are for the unsaved and the saved and strike at our heart, faith comes first, then intellectual supports. People will never think themselves to Christ, the thinking comes after the Holy Spirit has given faith.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

He did what He did because you can't Save yourself. Ask them what price they will pay to wend their way into heaven? What do they think heaven is like and why is it that those attributes are only evident as a kind of shadow.

Peace,

Dave