Religious Freedom

[Burning_Ember]

However, as mentioned already, I would also make certain that a pastor/preacher/registrar has the Right to deny performing the ceremony based on their own religious morality.

That is the only way to have true Religious Freedom, in my opinion!

Thoughts and comments?

This may sound a bit cynical, in advance.

If someone works for a company that sells condoms/birth-control/plan B, etc, they should have to sell what is on sale at the store. If they do not like the fact that the place they are working for wants them to sell something against their moral beliefs, then they should not be working there.

Imagine someone who's job is eating bees. Or doing stunts like being flung over houses.

"Oh no!" They say. "While I was eating bees, I got stung!", or "When I got flung from that contraption over the house, I suffered multiple spiral fractures!", they then conclude the comment with "I shouldn't have to do what I'm asked to do by my employer because its against my moral beliefs!"

If thats a case, then do not get a job eating bees, or one being a stunt man. In the same way, if you are a pacifist and are not comfortable with killing other people, do not join the military. Etcetera.

If you are a Pastor and you are certified by the government to marry people, it doens't mean you have to have a grand ceremony in YOUR private church is used, and such. You just have to say, you are now Man and Man, Or Wife and Wife, and make sure that they are legally recognized in the eyes of the government as married. They don't have to be married in your eyes.

If you don't like having the legal responsibility of marrying people when gay marriage is legal, then do something else.

[damo1]

the gay community wants the same rights a normal couple have they want to be accepted and they want normal bosses to give them the same rights we have

this will never happen the gay community will keep finding loop holes and they wil use these loop holes against us

my pastor has refused to marry gay couples sevral wanted to book out our church and he said no

other pastors are following suit and are making it clear they wil not be bullied or intimidated when it comes to gay couples and the rights they have including the decleration where it states a person has the right and the freedom to choose how they live out their lives and how they worship and what religon they take on

what do you do do you turn a blind eye and accept them for who they are to where we throw the old testament laws that were passed on to moses by god and say wel that was then this is know or do we stand up for this gospel and not let them have their way

I agree that homosexuality is not biblically sanctioned, but my moral dilemma (yes, another one beyond the one in my previous post) is whether we as Chrisitans should impose our own morals on those who don't believe as we do. To what extent should we allow our biblical values to affect a secular world (and yes, whatever anyone tries to say, this is a secular world we live in). It is not God's world, but Satan's. We are aliens in a strange land, according to the Bible. Should we deny homosexuals the Right to marry? In my opinion, no. It is a secular world, and if they don't want to follow God's rules, that is their choice, and they should be given the choice to marry.

However, as mentioned already, I would also make certain that a pastor/preacher/registrar has the Right to deny performing the ceremony based on their own religious morality.

That is the only way to have true Religious Freedom, in my opinion!

Thoughts and comments?

Greetings

i understand what you are saying hear and this is what has been discussed in my country and me soon to be ordained as a pastor its playing in the back off my head

what do you do they are off the world we are not off the world we belong to god this is satans dominion not ours they live by the laws of this land we do not live by the laws off this land we belong to christ we dont bow to the laws of this land or do we worship the spirit of this world we live in like the non believers

you have gods word and then you have the decleration and the law of the land

my pastor left the unitting church for this very reason he did not want to give up his role or did he want to leave the unitting church he came before god and he fasted he gave what he was feeling over to god we also pulled aside and gave what we were feeling over to god

my pastor and the other pastors in the city that i am living in direct gay couples to a cival registar or to a justice of the peace

we also have mission statements printed out and it states in clear print what we value as a group off belivers so that way it does not sound we are being discriminative and the gay couples who come to us to see if they can use our church and book our pastor are given this mission state ment and they are told to go over the mission state ment first

i am talking with my fiancee who is a filapino pastor and they are also sitting down with the other pastors and are lifting this up to the lord my partner said she had to say no to three gay couples who wanted to book the church out and asked if she could marry them

you cant turn a blind eye to this no matter how it might sound to the non beliver or to the gay couple asking if they can use your church and have you perform their marraige

would you be able to look two guys in the eye and perform the marraige ceremony like you would do with a normal couple ?

knowing what the bible has to say ?

i understand that we all come from difrent back grounds and we are from diffrent cultures and i understand also by what i am leaving hear another brother or sister in the lord has the right to disagree by what i am saying

but come judgment day when god decides its time to judge us i will not have god rebuke me because some christians cant handle what the old law has to say concerning to what we are wittnessing when it comes to the gay community

yes i also pray over my pastor and i pray over my fiancee and the pastors under her i pray that no one takes them to court and decides to sue them

we should also have the right to say what is on our mind and we should also have a right to say no

the time we have on this earth is short

this world is not ours it belongs to satan we see everyday how evil this world has become

i pray also over my self that i am never put in this sittuation to wear i am forced to marry a gay couple all due to the decleration

lord come quick father i want to go home and lord have mercy on us this world needs you father help us lord give us the wisdom and courage to stand up for what is right we have failed you lord and i ask that you watch over us

God bless from damo

[ParanoidAndroid]

This may sound a bit cynical, in advance.

If someone works for a company that sells condoms/birth-control/plan B, etc, they should have to sell what is on sale at the store. If they do not like the fact that the place they are working for wants them to sell something against their moral beliefs, then they should not be working there.

Imagine someone who's job is eating bees. Or doing stunts like being flung over houses.

"Oh no!" They say. "While I was eating bees, I got stung!", or "When I got flung from that contraption over the house, I suffered multiple spiral fractures!", they then conclude the comment with "I shouldn't have to do what I'm asked to do by my employer because its against my moral beliefs!"

If thats a case, then do not get a job eating bees, or one being a stunt man. In the same way, if you are a pacifist and are not comfortable with killing other people, do not join the military. Etcetera.

If you are a Pastor and you are certified by the government to marry people, it doens't mean you have to have a grand ceremony in YOUR private church is used, and such. You just have to say, you are now Man and Man, Or Wife and Wife, and make sure that they are legally recognized in the eyes of the government as married. They don't have to be married in your eyes.

If you don't like having the legal responsibility of marrying people when gay marriage is legal, then do something else.

It sounds like a very typical argument - they can't perform their duties, then don't work in that line of work. The thing is though, that we have constitutional Rights (in most countries) to express religious freedom. If that stops us doing our job, then it MIGHT require us to rethink our careers.

I say "might" because your analogy is flawed. You use the example of a stuntman who refuses to do stunts. But the entire career of a stuntman is based on stunt-work. It is the entirety of the job. However, providing anti-abortion medication is only one small portion of a much larger job in pharmacies, just as marrying people is just one small part of a pastor's career. A better example you might have used is the Butcher's shop. If a Muslim was working in a Butcher's shop, then they would have a very big moral dilemma since Islam requires that you don't touch carcasses and dead flesh (even Hindu's might have problem with the cow issue). But the primary job of a butcher is to cut and deliver meat. Naturally this stops a person being a butcher on religious grounds.

Not so with pastoral care or pharmacists. There are many jobs required to be done by both professions and dispensing certain medications for pharmacists, or marrying gay people, is only one of those tasks, and they have the Right to not serve them on religious grounds. However, by Law they must provide them with alternate means (direct them to another pharmacist, or direct them to a Civil Registrar).

Allow me a quick example. I am allergic to many types of seafood, particularly prawns, but other shellfish and some various other sea-creatures. When I was at uni, I sometimes needed to work in the deli at the supermarket where I worked part-time for extra cash (mostly I served at checkouts, but occasionally I was needed in the deli). Up the top-end of the deli was the seafood section. I could quite easily work on the raw chicken, the frankfurts, the salads, the cold meats, the olives, cheeses, BBQ section, cooking chickens, cleaning most cutlery/equipment, etc. I could do every job in that deli - except serve the seafood or wash the seafood containers at night. If someone asked for seafood, I would ask them to wait and call one of the other staff to provide the service because of my allergy.

Does this allergy stop me from working in the deli? No. But it does stop me from completing one small part of my job at the time. Now, if I had chosen a career in a seafood shop, then I would have a greater problem, wouldn't I? Handling seafood would not just be one small aspect of the job, but the entirety of the job. Thus my allergy prevents me from pursuing a career in the seafood industry. Such is the case with a pastor. Marriage is only one small part of a pastor's job, and the Law does not specify that they need to perform gay marriage (separation of Church and State), and the Pharmaceutical Industry protects the religious rights of its staff by giving them the option of not serving a product that goes against their religious convictions, under the proviso that they direct them to an alternate source of the product. As long as the person is willing to provide details for alternative means of marriage (civil registrar, for example), then there should be no issue. After all, it's the church that's missing out on the payment/rental of the church and pastoral service.

Your argument is a common one I have found on message boards. However, it is a flawed argument, as shown in details above.