Losing salvation

[godrulz]

Correction: Aorist tense is a punctiliar, completed action. I coughed (but do not continue to cough). .

The imperfect tense is a continuous past tense (I was coughing...I coughed and continued to cough). .....>>>>>>>>>

The present tense is usually continuous in the Greek (I believe= I am believing...I believed and continue to believe). I hear/follow and continue to hear/follow...it is possible to not follow in the future=conditional aspect.

Dimeministries has it right. Genuine believers are secure in Christ and nothing can sever our salvation. However, salvation has a conditional element. We must overcome to the end and actively abide in Christ. The Greek verbs do bear this out. If a believer renounces his faith to his death, he is back in the old category of being an unbeliever and under the wrath of God again (not secure nor saved).

No one can snatch us from God's hand, but he has given us genuine freedom to jump out of His hand with the new consequences. He does everything He can to save and sanctify us. The reality is that some exercise their wills and forsake God and the saving Gospel. Salvation is not an irreversible change ('born again' is a metaphor and cannot be argued to say that you cannot be unborn...this is pressing the analogy too far).

Jn. 10:28 is a proof text out of context if it is not balanced with v.27 and other passages in Hebrews, etc. that warn of the possibility of severing our relationship with God despite His great love and power. No man can take us out of God's love, but WE can chose to hate or love Him. God-haters are not secure in salvation. Any relationship can be entered into, maintained, or severed. This is the essence of salvation.

[godrulz]

Godrulz: I come from the Reformers' camp but you sure do make a very convincing argument. You might convince me yet...

Do you believe in and practice infant baptism? I guess if one believes infant baptism apart from moral choice is salvific (gives salvation), then OSAS might make sense (saved without choice, so cannot lose salvation by wrong choices?= does not fully compute).

I believe the biblical position is to dedicate infants but baptize believers who chose Christ by faith (moral/mental capability not possible for a newborn). If a believer can follow Christ, it is logical that they can also fall away. This is certainly evident in the ministry of Christ and the early church as well as in our modern churches.

[jamie]

John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER parish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand."

Anyone means 'any person at all'.

[Guest A Stone]

If you are a true believer, you are born again.

My physical father remains my father, no matter what, because I was born of him. I may get mad at him - curse at him - say to him, "I'm not your child anymore"! "I don't believe you are my father"? The reality is, he will always be my father.

The same is true of our Father in heaven. Once we are born again of His Spirit, we cannot become His "unchild"!

We, perhaps, may not have fellowship with Him. We probably will not feel comfortable around other Christians. We may not be able to share the Gospel with others. And we may never grow another inch spiritually from then on, but we will always be one of His.

Isn't that what the story of the prodigal son is about? Luke 15:11-32. A wayward son who squanders his inheritance but returns home to find that his father forgives him.

In verse 17 the son states, "How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!" Certainly if he had never gone back he would have perished physically. But during that time he was still his fathers son.

[Khristeeanos]

If you are a true believer, you are born again.

My physical father remains my father, no matter what, because I was born of him.  I may get mad at him - curse at him - say to him, "I'm not your child anymore"!  "I don't believe you are my father"? The reality is, he will always be my father.

The same is true of our Father in heaven.  Once we are born again of His Spirit, we cannot become His "unchild"!

I thought that godrulz touched on taking these things too far:

No one can snatch us from God's hand, but he has given us genuine freedom to jump out of His hand with the new consequences. He does everything He can to save and sanctify us. The reality is that some exercise their wills and forsake God and the saving Gospel. Salvation is not an irreversible change ('born again' is a metaphor and cannot be argued to say that you cannot be unborn...this is pressing the analogy too far).

+++

We, perhaps, may not have fellowship with Him.  We probably will not feel comfortable around other Christians.  We may not be able to share the Gospel with others.  And we may never grow another inch spiritually from then on, but we will always be one of His.

Isn't that what the story of the prodigal son is about? Luke 15:11-32.  A wayward son who squanders his inheritance but returns home to find that his father forgives him.

The story of the Prodigal Son is amazingly sad to me. It is proof that people can and do forsake God.

It is clear that the son was alive spiritually (verse 11), was dead spiritually (verse 32), and is alive again spiritually (verse 32).

The word "again" does mean "again," right?

This is only possible if he was alive spiritually, and then died spiritually because he was physically alive the entire time.

Certainly if he had never gone back he would have perished physically. But during that time he was still his fathers son.

This particular brand of grace that you proclaim is an obvious license to sin. Here is what God says about such a doctrine:

Jude 3-4

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation that we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.  For certain men, whose condemnation was written about long ago, have secretly slipped in among you.  They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

[Guest A Stone]

1 John 1:7-10, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

JAMIE:

IF, I am a wayward son who comes back to my father (who by the way, remained my father during my waywardness), and IF I repented and asked for forgiveness, because of the blood of Jesus I could walk in the light and have fellowship, AGAIN!

A Christian cannot purpose to go in and out of favor with the Lord. As Paul would say, I am "certainly not!" advocating that. But IF I happen to go 'wayward' it doesn't mean that I cannot come back to Him or that until I have, He isn't my Father. Once saved always saved.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

[Guest A Stone]

Jude 3-4

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation that we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men, whose condemnation was written about long ago, have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

The 'certain men' here are not saved men. They have never, in their hearts, accpeted Jesus Christ as their savior.

Do not think that all men who attend and even give service to your church are saved.

[Guest phelanfine]

The question is not. Can you lose your salvation? The question is. Were you ever saved to begin with?

Matthew 7: 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

You need to be doing the will of the LORD.

Mt 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven

If you practice lawlessness you are not saved.

Matthew 7:

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Workers of iniquity are not saved.

Luke 13:

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,

24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'

26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'

27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'

If you fall away and do not endure to the end you are not saved.

Not once saved always saved.

Matthew 10: 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

.Matthew 10: 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD

[other one]

phelanfine, that always comes up in this discussion and I think should be the starting point for the discussion... I have discussed this with some of my Baptist brothers and sisters and this always ends up with "were they saved in the first place" and I really don't think any person can know if anyone else is saved or not, and maybe just maybe they are suffering from self delusion for themselves. (I put myself in this also)

I don't see how you can have a serious discussion of OSAS if there is no definate knowledge of salvation. It is an effort in an endless debate circle.

Sooooo............ :x: :x:

[Khristeeanos]

The question is not. Can you lose your salvation? The question is. Were you ever saved to begin with?

My understanding of this assumption is that there is no way to tell if anybody is saved at all!

I mean, if I am a professed Christian and I am living for God today, and yet 5 years from now I fall away, I will be told I was "never saved."

But if I don't fall away 5 years from now, but persist until the end, that proves that I was saved?

But by this method, I will never know if I am saved TODAY because if I ever fall away, that proves I wasn't saved ever.

I understand that people want to feel secure in Christ and that is good.

But this teaching actually leads to the exact opposite conclusions.

Say I am a professed Christian and I used to be addicted to pornography but have overcome that by the grace of God. If a few years from now I stumble back into it, how am I to know that I was ever saved in the first place?