3 Plain Statements About The Rapture

[Celt]

OK, can you give me the scriptures that show that the rapture is b4 the tribulation?

The point was not the scripture. Any one of us can post scripture for the rest of the evening saying that it supports a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture or even a no rapture position and someone else is just going to say "no, it doesn't mean that." There are all kinds of threads on this board for every conceivable end-times position, with plenty of scripture in them. My point is it is meaningless to say the position is "unbiblical." That's false. It's your personal opinion, not a given fact, since you cannot say with 100% certainty that you are correct. Some doctrinal subjects are black and white. This isn't one of them. The fact that people think they have superior knowledge and they could not possibly be wrong is why we have people running around telling other people if they do not believe in their end times scenario, that they are heretics, teaching satanic lies, not saved, stupid, you name it. And supposedly standing on Christian values while they do it. It's called hypocrisy. At best, all anyone can do is say that personally, they feel the other person is incorrect, and that's as far as it can or should ever go. But everyone, myself included sometimes, want to defend our position so strenuously that we step way over the line when it comes to acceptable Christian behavior. Shame on us.

Reading and understanding The Bible is not that difficult. The difficulty comes from following something else that gets in the way of reading It with simplicity. All things are to be measured by God's Word.

What I really hear in all that whining is an attempt to bow out in denial to give Biblical proof against those plain statements 'man' clearly gave.

[Celt]

The fact is that the Bible teaches the posttrib rapture, that is not my opinion it is fact. To say it is just my opinion is like telling me it is just my opinion that 2+2=4

My thoughts exactly also. I have opinions about some things, but the post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His saints is not one of them. We are not correct on that simply because we think we are, nor do those who understand it claim to have superior knowledge. I know I don't. It comes from a simple reading of The Scripture and not allowing men's doctrines to get in the way. And it was the view the early Church also had about Christ's coming, and even for 1,800 years up to the 1830's. That's not my opinon either, and can be documented from the writings of the early saints.

[OneLight]

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[truthbringer]

truthbringer,

Are you ever going to post those verses?

Just wondering.

Man, I have put a post up about the pre-trib rapture.

Can you put some up about the Church going through the tribulation, [[A] Not the backsliders Not the Jews [The elect] or [C] Not the gentiles.

I MEAN THE CHURCH.

[truthbringer]

Man ... you are viewing my words wrongly. When I ask if it really matters when, I mean the debate of when it will happen, not if. When I say that we are to be ready always, I mean just that ... be wise as the wise 5 Virgins, having your lamps full. His time will come and we are to always be ready. Doing so, we are ready to be with Him every single moment on our lives.

I know what you were saying.

And I still say it matters.

You make reference to the 5 virgins who were ready, I was making reference to the 5 who were not.

Many people are being deceived into believing they will not be here for the tribulation, when in fact they will. Whether there is a rapture or not isn't the issue. The issue is that people are being fed a false sense of security. They're being taught that they don't have to worry about the bad stuff that's coming because they will be raptured away before it gets here. That's a false teaching.

Like I said, the issue isn't the rapture, it's preparing ones self for what's coming and people aren't doing that. If they are not ready to face the beast, they won't know him when they see him.

[1] People who aren't ready wont go up in the rapture, They will go thriugh the tribulation.

[2]If the Rapture is a false teaching, Where did the five wise virgins go??

[3]Jesus is coming back for a glorious Church, doing outstanding miracles and mighty works of power, A people just like Jesus.

If the devil couldn't deal with one Jesus, how is he going to handle millions Just like Jesus. He wont have to because they that are Living for Jesus, and acting just like Him will go up in the rapture. But the backsliden carnal Christians will be left, [The five unwise virgins] they will have to face what is going to happen.

The parable of the 10 virgins has nothing to do with the rapture. It has to do with being ready for Jesus' return. The whole pre-trib/rapture myth is nothing more than a false construct based on prooftexting.

You are joking, Aren't you.

[truthbringer]

The ones left behind after the so called "secret" Rapture, besides unbelievers, are those who claim to be Christians yet Christ does not know them. They are the ones who will evangelize the non-believers. Those saved then are the saints who will have their heads cut off for their faith. They are the ones who's salvation is not assured, as we are, because the Restrainer, the Holy Spirit - the one who lives in us and assures our salvation - will have left the Earth with those of us who are raptured. I pray that the Lord comes now!

The Bible shows just the opposite of that idea.

Instead, those ideas sound like they came right out of the Left-Behind series books by Hagee that the pre-trib "secret rapture" churches are busy with instead of staying in God's Holy Writ.

There's only one time of the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus, and the trumpet that sounds when that happens is the same trumpet mentioned in Matt.24, 1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15, and Rev.11:15.

As Christ showed in Matt.24:28 and Luke 17, the first ones taken in the field are the deceived, as Christ compared them to a dead carcase where the vultures ("eagles") are gathered around. The one left in the field that is not taken, will wait for the true time of Christ's second coming on the last trump, the 7th angel sounding of Revelation.

The apostle Paul gave the PROPER ORDER of the gathering of the saints by Christ in 2 Thessalonians 2:

II Th 2:1-12

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

What's the subject? The coming of Jesus Christ and the gathering of His saints to Him. That's not about a "secret rapture", nor a two-part rapture. No such idea like that is described there by Paul. It's a one-time gathering by Christ Jesus of all of His Church. That means both the believing Jews and Gentiles as one Body. No division of His Church here at all.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The "day of Christ" phrase means 'the day of The Lord', the same phrase Paul used in 1 Thess.5 about the time of Christ's coming. That day is also written of back in the Old Testament prophets. Paul warned the Thessalonians to not be deceived, not even by letter AS written from the Apostles. That reveals why Paul had to remind them of this particular order of events about Christ's second coming. False ones had crept in and were writing letters and assigning them to Paul and the Apostles, and it was causing confusion about this order of Christ's return.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There's the order of events, and it's very simple. The word "except" is a conditional term. That day of Christ will not come EXCEPT those conditions are met first. And the conditions are: 1) there come a falling away first; 2) that man of sin be revealed; and 3) so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul further links the revealing of that "man of sin" (the antichrist) with the time of Christ's actual coming in a later verse.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had to remind them of this order, again, because of how false ones had been stirring up confusion among them.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

One of the above conditions was that "man of sin" being "revealed". That "man of sin" is the subject of this withholding. The term "son of perdition" is another title for the devil, as Apollyon in the Greek means to perish fully. Apollyon is one of his titles in Rev.9. We know in Rev.20 Satan is to perish in the lake of fire at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign. Who is it that casts Satan out of Heaven in Rev.12? It's the Archangel Michael. That's who is withholding Satan right now before he is cast down to this earth for the tribulation (per Rev.12:7-9). So this has absolutely nothing to do with the Church being raptured out.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

As there is a antichrist, there also are many antichrists, meaning servants of the devil that work for him. That's what the "mystery of iniquity" is about. The one witholding is Michael, and will continue until the war in Heaven happens which casts Satan and his angels down to this earth.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

Here's the verse that tells when "that Wicked" will be "revealed". It's when Christ comes to destroy him. Paul did not mention more than one coming of Christ here, nor more than one gathering of the saints. That Wicked will not be revealed to the whole world for who he really is until Christ's second coming to gather His saints.

Wrong, Your own opinion and so wrong

[truthbringer]

I believe in Pre-Trib, but call myself a Pan-Trib: it'll all pan out in the end!

God truly IS in control. Sometimes I think people believe us and our works (or lack thereof) have more to do with salvation than the Holy Spirit does! God doesn't NEED us. He has the rocks and stones, you know.

That's certainly new; pulling quotes from two totally different subject responses to pre-trib posts, and overlapping them with one another. If you really mean what you say, then why didn't you include some overlapped quotes from the pre-trib posts also, quoting both sides?

Pan is from the idea of 'pantheism', the Pan god. Its system believes that everything... is God, that God has no Personal Entity. So as a Christian, I wouldn't advise using that Pan label, not even with good intentions. Pantheism is one of the doctrines being pushed in many churches today by the 'brotherhood of mankind' reasoning, the idea that there are many paths to the same God. We each must decide whether we will make a stand for Christ, or not. There is no middle road, which is what 'pan' represents.

Do you believe God likes disipline?

I assure you He does, for that's the word from which 'disciple' comes from. The problem is our people are lazy. They don't like discipline. Many of them even associate that word discipline with punishment, or tyrants, because of how the enemy has propagandized the term. Discipline merely means training oneself, for work, for study, etc. Without it none of Christ's servants will become the kind of servants He wants. Christ has a Plan, and it involves His servants. It involves putting the Gospel Armor on for these last days to make a stand against His enemies, even to the death if needs be.

There's no room for the lukewarm who think they can take the easy way out of escape.

1Thes 5:3

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

You conveniently left out 1 Thess 5; V4--9, just like all false teachers do, you left the vs out because it blows you doctrine.

Read ch 4, The Church will be raptured first. Keep it its right context.

[Streetsweeper]

You conveniently left out 1 Thess 5; V4--9, just like all false teachers do, you left the vs out because it blows you doctrine.

Read ch 4, The Church will be raptured first. Keep it its right context.

Sorry, I don't understand what your saying.

I've just re-read 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5. There's a whole heap of tantalising imagery about resurrection of the saints, and the gathering together of the whole body of Christ.

It looks like a pretty straightforward declaration of the last day, but it's also nice to think of the rapture as the final crossing of the Jordan.

[truthbringer]

The parable of the wheat and tares show clearly that it is the wicked who will be removed from the earth first. This totally proves their is no pretrib, secret rapture.

Matthew 13

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

That scripture is talking about the avents after the tribulation, THE FINLE JUDGEMENT. If you'd carry on reading the chapter you would have seen that.

Edited September 1, 2008 by truthbringer

[truthbringer]

This isn't a salvation issue and no one has it figured out with 100% certainty.

It is a salvation issue if one isn't ready.

Who do you think Paul is talking about here?

2 Thess. 2

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

cirtainly not the Church, it wont be here