When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Rick-Parker]

Why can't we just say "this is what I believe" instead of "you are wrong"? Aren't you people are sick of this petty bickering? I know I am.

[Rick-Parker]

Why can't we just say "this is what I believe" instead of "you are wrong"? Aren't you people are sick of this petty bickering? I know I am.

What I said is what if you are wrong, his answer was that he was not wrong the possibility of him being wrong was 0%, so My responds was how i read it you are wrong. I never said he was wrong I said #1 what if you are wrong and #2 How I read it you are wrong. Neither one of those are positive declarations of his incorrectness.

I wasn't speaking of you specifically. But, what you have said here is just word games/semantics. You said "how I read it you are wrong." I am discouraged that you are not tired of hearing and saying others are wrong in this and other threads. If you are, you sure are not conveying it very well. And, just to be clear, this is not personal. I enjoy your writings, whether I concur or not.

[Larry 2]

Celt quotes - Dan 9:26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(KJV)

Response by larry2 - Now to understand this we must back up a portion of Daniel 9:25. "From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." First of all it is going "To be seven weeks" and if we're year-day counting that's going to mean 49 years, and then you'll add to that "Threescore and two weeks" which would total 69 weeks or 483 years. And so from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem and this is talking about the wall that Nehemiah went up to build, not the temple which Ezra built later, but until Messiah the Prince was cut off was 483 years.

What is being cut off? Jesus was not made known as Messiah the Prince until He rode coming on the foul of an ass into Jerusalem, and that happened just a week before He died there on the cross. "The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times" was talking about that time when Nehemiah and Ezra went up to Jerusalem. Sanballat the Horonite opposed them, and trouble just came from all directions. As Messiah the Prince Jesus did offer Himself, but Israel as a nation didn't accept Him but delivered Him to the cross and thus He cut off from the land of the living. "But not for himself." Jesus was crucified for the sins of the world. Now all this happened covering the first 483 years of the prophesied 490 years. What happens during the 70th week of Daniel? Well right after Jesus was cut off, there was nothing by blessings for the following seven years; no sign of judgment, and so this next portion of scripture cannot pertain to Christ. One other thing to note from history is that it was not the people of the prince that destroyed the sanctuary in 71 A.D., it was Rome.

Now let's examine the end of Daniel 9:26 and this is where we jump to the last week of Daniel which is talking about seven years of tribulation. "And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. These floods represent the people of the prince, and all seven years are said to be the hour of temptation to come upon all the world in Revelation 3:10. This coming prince shall make a covenant with many for one week, or seven years and it ends up that this prince's people destroy the city and the sanctuary this time, not Rome.

Celt quoted these next verses also - Dan 11:21-23

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

(KJV)

Answer by larry2 - These two verses are history. We read of this in Daniel 11:2. "And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia." And this all came to pass as prophesied.

God bless in Jesus' name - larry2

[Rick-Parker]

Why can't we just say "this is what I believe" instead of "you are wrong"? Aren't you people are sick of this petty bickering? I know I am.

What I said is what if you are wrong, his answer was that he was not wrong the possibility of him being wrong was 0%, so My responds was how i read it you are wrong. I never said he was wrong I said #1 what if you are wrong and #2 How I read it you are wrong. Neither one of those are positive declarations of his incorrectness.

I wasn't speaking of you specifically. But, what you have said here is just word games/semantics. You said "how I read it you are wrong." I am discouraged that you are not tired of hearing and saying others are wrong in this and other threads. If you are, you sure are not conveying it very well. And, just to be clear, this is not personal. I enjoy your writings, whether I concur or not.

My question was ''what if your wrong?'' how would that effect your belief on whether will be a peace treaty and the length of the tribulation. You refuse the very idea that you could possibly wrong. I have not called you wrong. I just noted that the way you see Daniel play out is not how I see it, and if you are wrong how would that effect your beliefs.

I don't want to argue about this; maybe you should go back and read what you wrote (I highlighted it above.) Reads like as far as you were concerned, he was wrong. You won't even acknowledge when you say something that is black and white. That's all I have to say to you about it. God bless.

[givennewname]

Dear Larry2,

Greeting in the precious name of the Lord. Thank you for yr answer. Now this is one question i like to ask u if you believe that the tribulation will start after the abomination of desolation is set up. I agree that many groups in Israel are getting ready to restart the building of the Temple and restart the sacrificial system, the Temple Mount Faithful being one of them. Problem is there is still arguments as to where the holy of Holies will be situated and where the Temple would be situated. Now the Temple Mount faithfuls believe that the Holy of Holies is situated under the Dome of the Rock mosque or the central positioning of the Temple. If that is correct, it would mean that the holy of holies is already made desolate and defiled by the Dome of the Rock which is a shrine to a foreign God to Isreal, which means the tribulation had started a long time ago.. which is not possible. Which means that the site of the holy of holies is wrong!

[Larry 2]

Dear Larry2,

Greeting in the precious name of the Lord. Thank you for yr answer. Now this is one question i like to ask u if you believe that the tribulation will start after the abomination of desolation is set up. I agree that many groups in Israel are getting ready to restart the building of the Temple and restart the sacrificial system, the Temple Mount Faithful being one of them. Problem is there is still arguments as to where the holy of Holies will be situated and where the Temple would be situated. Now the Temple Mount faithfuls believe that the Holy of Holies is situated under the Dome of the Rock mosque or the central positioning of the Temple. If that is correct, it would mean that the holy of holies is already made desolate and defiled by the Dome of the Rock which is a shrine to a foreign God to Isreal, which means the tribulation had started a long time ago.. which is not possible. Which means that the site of the holy of holies is wrong!

Answer by larry2 - Dear givennewname, I will use this quote I previously posted in a reply to Godfearer, butI think it pretty answers you question better than I could answer it, and no I do not believe the tribulation has started. The antichrist has not yet confirmed the covent with many shown us in Daniel 9:27, nor has he caused sacrifice and oblation to cease in the midst of the week as some claim. Your asked if I believe the tribulation will start after the abomination of desolation is set up, and I have to answer yes and no. The abomination of desolation is set up in the midst of the week which means there was 3 1/2 years of tribulation predeeding this midst of the week. But the second 3 1/2 years of tribulation becomes much more severe so that if God did not cut it short, no one would physically live through it including the elect. But back to that quote I promised concerning the temple, and if this does not satisfy you please ask again.

Quoting Brother Hawkins - "Now the sanctuary in Verse 13 (Of Daniel 8) is talking about where the daily sacrifice is offered, and I would like to say just a little bit about that because there are some down through the years that teach we just cannot be that close to the coming of the Lord the way some people say because Israel doesn't have a temple, and because of that they can't offer sacrifices and that absolutely is not true. When they went back to Jerusalem after the seventy years captivity was over, they went to Jerusalem and the first thing we see them doing was erecting an altar and begin to offer sacrifices. Now their purpose was to build a temple. They did not wait until the temple was built in order to offer sacrifices and so the sanctuary here would simply mean the place where the sacrifice is offered and they don't have to have a temple for that. I don't even know whether they're offering sacrifices there or not, but one thing we do know is that the daily sacrifice is going to have to be taken away, and if it's taken away it must first be offered."

Hope this helped givennewname in the name of Jesus - larry2

[Larry 2]

Right how I read it he is wrong, maybe he can explain to me why I am reading it incorrectly. So Larry, what if you are wrong how would that effect you belief on whether or not there will be a peace treaty and or how long the tribulation will last?

Original thread read as follows - I have asked this question in replies in other threads to no avail, but to know how someone interprets Revelation in its different events determines their stance on the rapture of the Church; pre, mid, or post tribulation. To make sure you understand what I am asking, when does the seven years of tribulation start according to scripture? Please give scriptures or explanations of events with scripture to substantiate your views.

Additional response - I would like to add to the original question. Can you substantiate your views of what you believe with scripture from Revelation showing their relationship to your belief that we're presently in the tribulation period if that's what you believe? For instance in Revelation 12:5 where the woman of the preceding verse gives birth to a man child caught up unto God, or in Revelation 7:9 where we see a great multitude stand before the throne with white robes, or in Revelation 4:6 where we read of four beasts in the midst of the throne and saying they were redeemed in another place, or where we see in Revelation that a star fell from heaven to earth? These are just a few of the questions I would like to know that fits into your doctrine, and I would appreciate scripture and not supposition to back your thoughts please.

Quoting Ezekiel33 - Right how I read it he is wrong, maybe he can explain to me why I am reading it incorrectly.

Answer - I have tried at different times to show you why I believe as I do though it has nothing to do with the thread, and they seemingly all revolve around your and my differences as to the meaning or interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27, but for those that haven't been though your other questions and my answers I suggest you and they go back and read through the different replies we're made to each other in this thread. These things can nearly wear out the saints of the most High of which I am.

Ezekiel33, I simply do not agree with you on those verses and there's little I can add to anything I've already said. Some have attempted to tell me many things using their own reasoning even using scripture out of context, but God's word is our measuring stick or standard we go by. As to your question what if I'm wrong, would that affect my beliefs, I can say as I grew in grace God has showed me many things to change my thinking as He added line upon line, and precept upon precept; here a little and there a little. As a Catholic in the past I thought the Pope was it, and that if I missed a holy day of obligation I was lost; I no longer believe those things. Anyhow I welcome you to give it your best shot using scripture and not your own human reasoning. Your past questions of "What if" is supporting no one's theory.

God bless in Jesus' name - larry2

[Celt]

Responswe by larry2 - Great answer Celt. Very seldom I find any that realize this shorting of the second half of the tribulation necessitates realignment in our thinking of the second 1260 days of the tribulation. This is an abbreviated answer to your question which I plan on going more in depth later, but it is shortened 250 days because we have to consider Daniel 8:11-14 in the equation.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Now since there are 2300 days from the sacrifice being taken away, and the sacrifice being taken aways occurs 30 days prior to the seven years of tribulation which takes in consideration the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This 1290 days are until the middle of the week. So the total days add up to 2550 days minus the 30 days prior to the tribulation equals 2520 days or the two halves of the tribulation. But then again taking into account the 2300 days starting from the time the sacrifice is taken away leaves us at a point 250 days prior to the end of the 2520 days. WOW - And then it gets deeper.

Thanks Celt, I will address the rest of your thread on another reply - God bless in Jesus' name - larry2

I understand how you got the idea of the daily sacrifice ending 30 days prior to the 7 years from Dan.12:11. But in Dan.9:27 that false prince takes away the sacrifice and oblation in the middle of the symbolic 'week'. That means after the first 1260 days have transpired.

So I'm seeing Dan.12:11 mean the abomination of desolation is setup 30 days after... the middle of the 'week'. And then per Dan.12:12, those who "waiteth" and come to 45 days after that, to the 1335 days, are said to be blessed.

Since the actual time of 'stinging' by the locust army is to last "five months" (Rev.9), I believe that reckons into it. I believe the last half of the symbolic "one week" has been shortened to "five months", or 150 days. The total period would be 1260 days for the first half of the week, and five months (150 days) for the last half of the week. So the first half 1260 days to the middle of the week, and then 30 days after that to 1290 days for the abomination of desolation to be setup, and then after 45 days the blessed come to the 1335 days, leaving 75 days still to be accounted for.

I don't believe we have to make that 2300 days fit anymore, since Christ said the tribulation would be shortened for His elect's sake.

[Celt]

Larry 2,

FYI:

Per the website of the orthodox Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful movement in Jerusalem, they have already been doing animal sacrifices on passover. They showed a picture of it on their website, on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount. (http://www.templemountfaithful.org/img/pesch_sacrifice_2004.jpg) That pic was not a recent event either. It was in 2003.

I used to have a news clipping about a company in Tennessee called 'Jesus, Inc.' that was sending heifers to Jerusalem for sacrifice. That gives weight to what your pastor was saying.

[Fraught]

Jesus tells us in matthew 24:

15