Is a belief in the Trinity Doctrine neccessary for salvation?

[Guest ResLight]

I have just joined this forum, and this is my first post. I came upon this forum through Google.

I am Christian who does not believe in promoting sectarianism within the body of Christ, whether that sectarianism is "you cannot be a Christian if you do not believe in the trinity," or "you cannot be a Christian if you do believe in the trinity." I have heard arguments from both sides. On the other hand, neither do I believe one is a Christian simply because a person who professes Christ does believe in the trinity, or that he does not believe in the trinity.

If a person confesses the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, I believe that he has been saved from the condemnation of sin and death in Adam. (Romans 10:9) The key word here is "heart." (Luke 6:45) It is impossible for us to judge another's heart, although we can, to some extent, judge the works that the heart produces. (Matthew 12:34; John 13:35; Titus 1:16) Indeed, most of us have difficulty judging our own heart. (Jeremiah 17:9) The judgment of the heart is left in the hands of God through his Son (Psalm 44:21; Isaiah 11:3; John 5:22; Acts 17:31), and such is not revealed until Christ's second appearing. -- 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 9:28.

We know, however, that many make such a profession, but are not true "heart" believers, and this is true whether they believe in the trinity or do not believe in the trinity. Thus, in the day of judgment, Jesus spoke of those who would come to him, asking why they did not receive the kingdom, "'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy by your name, by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works?" (Matthew 7:22) They evidently profess to believe that Jesus is "Lord," and evidently do many "works" in the name of Jesus, but evidently their hearts were not in the right place, so that Jesus does not recognize him as his sheep who are given to him from his Father. -- Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:8; John 10:27,29.

While many find scriptures to support the idea that one has to be believe in the trinity in order to be saved, and many find scriptures to support the idea that one who believes in the trinity is not saved, in reality, upon examining the scriptures presented for both cases, one has to assume and read the conclusions of either side into the scriptures presented. I believe we need to be very careful along these lines (Proverbs 15:28), lest we alienate ourselves from fellow-members of the body of Christ based on our own magnified assumptions (Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:6), rather than what God has actually decreed, regardless of whether we believe or do not believe in the trinity. -- Romans 14:4; 1 Corinthians 12:21.

Christian love,

Ronald

[BlindSeeker]

I have just joined this forum, and this is my first post. I came upon this forum through Google.

I am Christian who does not believe in promoting sectarianism within the body of Christ, whether that sectarianism is "you cannot be a Christian if you do not believe in the trinity," or "you cannot be a Christian if you do believe in the trinity." I have heard arguments from both sides. On the other hand, neither do I believe one is a Christian simply because a person who professes Christ does believe in the trinity, or that he does not believe in the trinity.

If a person confesses the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, I believe that he has been saved from the condemnation of sin and death in Adam. (Romans 10:9) The key word here is "heart." (Luke 6:45) It is impossible for us to judge another's heart, although we can, to some extent, judge the works that the heart produces. (Matthew 12:34; John 13:35; Titus 1:16) Indeed, most of us have difficulty judging our own heart. (Jeremiah 17:9) The judgment of the heart is left in the hands of God through his Son (Psalm 44:21; Isaiah 11:3; John 5:22; Acts 17:31), and such is not revealed until Christ's second appearing. -- 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 9:28.

We know, however, that many make such a profession, but are not true "heart" believers, and this is true whether they believe in the trinity or do not believe in the trinity. Thus, in the day of judgment, Jesus spoke of those who would come to him, asking why they did not receive the kingdom, "'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy by your name, by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works?" (Matthew 7:22) They evidently profess to believe that Jesus is "Lord," and evidently do many "works" in the name of Jesus, but evidently their hearts were not in the right place, so that Jesus does not recognize him as his sheep who are given to him from his Father. -- Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:8; John 10:27,29.

While many find scriptures to support the idea that one has to be believe in the trinity in order to be saved, and many find scriptures to support the idea that one who believes in the trinity is not saved, in reality, upon examining the scriptures presented for both cases, one has to assume and read the conclusions of either side into the scriptures presented. I believe we need to be very careful along these lines (Proverbs 15:28), lest we alienate ourselves from fellow-members of the body of Christ based on our own magnified assumptions (Romans 12:3; 1 Corinthians 4:6), rather than what God has actually decreed, regardless of whether we believe or do not believe in the trinity. -- Romans 14:4; 1 Corinthians 12:21.

Christian love,

Ronald

First, a big welcome to Worthy Boards

Second, excellent post

[LadyRaven]

God can and does often save people who have little or know knowledge about any kind of doctrine. It is possible to be saved without knowing or understanding the truth about the trinity. However, once you are saved, the Holy Spirit will lead you to eventually at least apprehend that the trinity is truth (you dont have to get it, just affirm it) and lead you out of and away from any heretical teachings which deny the trinity.

Any organised body which denies the trinity, however, is not Christian, no matter how many of the elect sit in it's pews. It is a heretical sect, a lie, and it is incumbent upon those of us who know the truth to make sure that everyone understands this. The Jesus they preach is a different Jesus, The Father a different father and the Holy Spirit a different spirit. Therefore the gospel they preach is a different gospel.

[Smalcald]

I guess I am really confused as to why any Christian would want to deny that Christ is God? Are we polytheists believing in multiple God's or do we reject that Christ is Lord of all? Those are the choices if you reject the Trinity.

What if someone claimed trinitarians were polytheist and that they cannot be true christians? How would you fell about that?

Mormons would say that I am not saved as would JW's, I still like the people I know who are Mormons and JW's and their believing that I am not saved does not bother me any more than it bothers me when a Muslim or a Hindu claims I am wrong.

The Trinity is simply saying what the bible says about the Father Son and Holy Spirit. We can't pray to three God's, they are One and yet they are distinct, a hard concept no doubt, I don't fully understand it!

However there is indeed a subtle attack in the world today to make Jesus into simply a man or a great leader or even a lesser God, but not God, this is the one thing that Christ Himself said would offend many, it is critical. One of the reason's Christ was crucified was that He claimed to be God to be equal to God, the chief priest tore at his garments in disgust of such a statement, it is THE stumbling block. To take away who He really is this is very very dangerous, we can argue indeed about the hard and complex details of what exactly the Trinity means and I think that is okay, but to deny that Christ IS God that the Holy Spirit is God; is indeed blaspheme, it says God is not God it goes to the core of our faith.

I would never worship in a Church that did not believe in the Trinity nor would I pray with anybody who was intentionally not praying to the Trinity as they are praying to a false God they are not Christians, regardless of what they want to call themselves.

One of the defining characteristics of Christian heresy throughout history and cult behavior is almost uniformly a rejection of the Trinity.

Jesus was God indeed,but how much God was He was He simply God the Son separate fron the Father and H.S. or was He fully and completely God?

Okay now we are getting into the nature of God (God is the Trinity), so we do indeed agree that Jesus is God! I would say that you accept the Trinity. My major and biggest concern is that we slide into denying the divinity of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit as One God eternal, that we somehow lessen these parts of God or worse yet separate them from God into lesser beings or multiple God's or worse yet fully quasi human offspring of God which is what some of the cults have done, this is my concern and why I am so seemingly adamant on the issue.

I have no idea how much God Jesus is; or what that even means, I just simply accept the fact that Christ is God, and at the same time Christ is the Son of God, and when He was on earth He was also fully human, I accept it on faith alone and because this is what is shown in scripture.

The problem is not understanding or really agreeing on the details of the theology of the Trinity, the problem is the implications of rejecting the Trinity and what that does say about the Divinity of Christ as Lord and the Divine nature of the Holy Spirit.

[Larry 2]

Quoting Mudcat - I don't think you would find an LDS in the world who thought anyone who claims Christ is unsaved.

Response - How can that be, they don't even believe they are saved yet. Read below.

2 NEPHI 33:10-11. "And if ye believe in Christ, ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me." Mudcat, LDS may say certain things concerning believing in Christ as the way of being saved, but they mean this: You must also believe in the Book of Mormon

Alma 7:1 ". . . Those who repent, are baptized, and keep the commandments shall have eternal life" - LDS here adds conditions to what the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

According to 2 Nephi 31:20; "Endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." LDS don't even believe they are saved yet - They must endure to the end.

Mudcat, Gal !:8 says "if we or an angel of heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached, let him be accursed." (the finished word which was hidden from other ages is now being given to you by Jesus Christ through Paul whom it was revealed to according to Colossians 1:25-26, so don

[LadyRaven]

God can and does often save people who have little or know knowledge about any kind of doctrine. It is possible to be saved without knowing or understanding the truth about the trinity. However, once you are saved, the Holy Spirit will lead you to eventually at least apprehend that the trinity is truth (you dont have to get it, just affirm it) and lead you out of and away from any heretical teachings which deny the trinity.

Any organised body which denies the trinity, however, is not Christian, no matter how many of the elect sit in it's pews. It is a heretical sect, a lie, and it is incumbent upon those of us who know the truth to make sure that everyone understands this. The Jesus they preach is a different Jesus, The Father a different father and the Holy Spirit a different spirit. Therefore the gospel they preach is a different gospel.

Are you trying to say that the UPC is not a christian organization, that is absurd. By the way I am not apart of the UPC, I Go to a ''Church of God'' which is a trinitarian pentecostal denom, but the UPC is not heretical it is christian, they just happen to believe differently than you do.

By the way people have accuse this organization and that organization of being non-christian, and sometimes I agree, but in my opinion calvinism are less christian than any of them.

Does the UPC teach the trinity? If it does not then it is heretical, not Christian and teaching a false Christ. This indicates the gospel that they preach is, scripturally, another doctrine. If it does and it embraces all other aspects of orthodoxy (like the virgin birth, etc) then it is one. That is the defining point.

The Holy Spirit is not going to allow believers to embrace heresy for very long after they are saved, He will lead believers away from it. Whether you like Calvinism or not, or whether I like Arminianism or not, they both do, in their original forms, hold to orthodox Christian beliefs and therefore are both Christian in their original forms.

[Mudcat]

Quoting Mudcat - I don't think you would find an LDS in the world who thought anyone who claims Christ is unsaved.

Response - How can that be, they don't even believe they are saved yet. Read below.

2 NEPHI 33:10-11. "And if ye believe in Christ, ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me." Mudcat, LDS may say certain things concerning believing in Christ as the way of being saved, but they mean this: You must also believe in the Book of Mormon

Alma 7:1 ". . . Those who repent, are baptized, and keep the commandments shall have eternal life" - LDS here adds conditions to what the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

According to 2 Nephi 31:20; "Endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." LDS don't even believe they are saved yet - They must endure to the end.

Mudcat, Gal !:8 says "if we or an angel of heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached, let him be accursed." (the finished word which was hidden from other ages is now being given to you by Jesus Christ through Paul whom it was revealed to according to Colossians 1:25-26, so don

[Smalcald]

I guess I am really confused as to why any Christian would want to deny that Christ is God? Are we polytheists believing in multiple God's or do we reject that Christ is Lord of all? Those are the choices if you reject the Trinity.

What if someone claimed trinitarians were polytheist and that they cannot be true christians? How would you fell about that?

Mormons would say that I am not saved as would JW's, I still like the people I know who are Mormons and JW's and their believing that I am not saved does not bother me any more than it bothers me when a Muslim or a Hindu claims I am wrong.

The Trinity is simply saying what the bible says about the Father Son and Holy Spirit. We can't pray to three God's, they are One and yet they are distinct, a hard concept no doubt, I don't fully understand it!

However there is indeed a subtle attack in the world today to make Jesus into simply a man or a great leader or even a lesser God, but not God, this is the one thing that Christ Himself said would offend many, it is critical. One of the reason's Christ was crucified was that He claimed to be God to be equal to God, the chief priest tore at his garments in disgust of such a statement, it is THE stumbling block. To take away who He really is this is very very dangerous, we can argue indeed about the hard and complex details of what exactly the Trinity means and I think that is okay, but to deny that Christ IS God that the Holy Spirit is God; is indeed blaspheme, it says God is not God it goes to the core of our faith.

I would never worship in a Church that did not believe in the Trinity nor would I pray with anybody who was intentionally not praying to the Trinity as they are praying to a false God they are not Christians, regardless of what they want to call themselves.

One of the defining characteristics of Christian heresy throughout history and cult behavior is almost uniformly a rejection of the Trinity.

Jesus was God indeed,but how much God was He was He simply God the Son separate fron the Father and H.S. or was He fully and completely God?

Okay now we are getting into the nature of God (God is the Trinity), so we do indeed agree that Jesus is God! I would say that you accept the Trinity. My major and biggest concern is that we slide into denying the divinity of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit as One God eternal, that we somehow lessen these parts of God or worse yet separate them from God into lesser beings or multiple God's or worse yet fully quasi human offspring of God which is what some of the cults have done, this is my concern and why I am so seemingly adamant on the issue.

I have no idea how much God Jesus is; or what that even means, I just simply accept the fact that Christ is God, and at the same time Christ is the Son of God, and when He was on earth He was also fully human, I accept it on faith alone and because this is what is shown in scripture.

The problem is not understanding or really agreeing on the details of the theology of the Trinity, the problem is the implications of rejecting the Trinity and what that does say about the Divinity of Christ as Lord and the Divine nature of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was fully God and as I have stated you do not need the doctrine of the trinity to believe that.

Where do you then differ? I guess I am just not so specific. I just don't believe that all Christians have been wrong up until recently when these ideas of rejecting the Trinity came about. I think you must have the doctrine of the Trinity to believe that Jesus was fully God. If we baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit then we must believe in the Trinity or we are polytheists. You just can't get around the fact that we pray and worship only one God, yet we pray to Christ yet we believe that the Holy Spirit is an actual being that inhabits our Body that we can blaspheme, you can't blaspheme something that is not God.

I must admit I am not up on these recent kinds of ideas which reject the Trinity, but I just don't see where they differ?

I don't want to argue anymore, but I really am curious as to what you believe and how in your mind that is not believing in the Trinity?

Below is from the Worthy statement of faith and I fully accept it, what don't you agree with about it, if anything?

We believe that God is eternally One, and also eternally the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit -- the three being distinct, but not separate. Each Person of the Godhead coexists from everlasting to everlasting.

[Guest ResLight]

God can and does often save people who have little or know knowledge about any kind of doctrine. It is possible to be saved without knowing or understanding the truth about the trinity. However, once you are saved, the Holy Spirit will lead you to eventually at least apprehend that the trinity is truth (you dont have to get it, just affirm it) and lead you out of and away from any heretical teachings which deny the trinity.

Any organised body which denies the trinity, however, is not Christian, no matter how many of the elect sit in it's pews. It is a heretical sect, a lie, and it is incumbent upon those of us who know the truth to make sure that everyone understands this. The Jesus they preach is a different Jesus, The Father a different father and the Holy Spirit a different spirit. Therefore the gospel they preach is a different gospel.

While I do not view that belief in the trinity does not mean that one is not saved, or that he is not a Christian, I do believe that belief in the trinity does greatly hamper the holy spirit and the revealing of the deep things of God to those who do accept that doctrine. Any doctrine that diminishes the basis of the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus to his God, cannot help but hinder what the holy spirit reveals to such a person.

God has revealed his truths by means of his holy spirit through the apostles. It was the apostles that the promise was made that they would be led into all truths, and not to each and every individual person who accepts Christ. It was through the apostle that the faith was once for all delivered to the saints in the first century. (Jude 1:3) We who are not the apostles, upon accepting Christ, do have what has been revealed by means of God 's holy spirit as recorded in the Bible.

God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. (Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10) On the other hand, simply having the holy spirit does not guarantee that these things will be made know to us, but the things written can be made known to one to the extent that he seeks for such revealment, comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment.

God's holy spirit is likened to God's finger (as the power of God). (Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20) As the revealment of truth, the holy spirit appears to be likened to God's "mouth". (1 Kings 8:24; 2 Chronicles 6:4; 36:12,21; Ezra 1:1; Isaiah 1:20; 40:5; 45:23; 48:3; 58:14; 62:2; Jeremiah 9:12,20; Ezekiel 33:7; Micah 4:4; Matthew 4:4; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:17; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7; 9:8; 10:15,16; 2 Peter 1:21)

Part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a "falling away" from the truth of God's Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching "another Jesus"; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great "Man of Sin", or more correctly "Lawless Man", or "Illegal Man", a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God's Word since their revelation was allegedly of God's Spirit. The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament.

Earlier, I referred to Jude's statement concerning "the faith." His statement was: "While I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Having been once delivered, as Jude states, it does not need to be "delivered" again as it was originally delivered through the apostles to saints, and yet, Jude exhorts us to "contend' for the faith that had been delivered. The Greek word that is rendered "contend" here is "Epagonizomai." (Strong's #1864) This word relates positioning ourselves in a fight, a struggle. The believers' position is an endeavor to fight for the faith, the faith once for all delivered. What was once for all delivered we find recorded in the writings of the what we generally call "The New Testament." It is those writings, not what some spirit may reveal to us, that we are to contend for. A spirit may be misleading us, but if we stay by what the holy spirit has revealed to us in the Bible, we will not be misled. Thus, Paul urges the Corinthians to "not to think beyond the things which are written." (2 Corinthians 4:6) John warns: "Don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God." -- John 4:1.

It is because Jesus knew that there would be an apostasy, that he asked the question: "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) In the Greek there is a definite article related to "man" as well as to "faith." "When the Son of the Man comes, will he find the faith on the earth?" "Son of the Man" is a title for the promised son of the man, David: the son of David. Jesus was not saying asking the question about "faith" in general, but he was speaking about "the faith." In effect, he was speaking of the same "the faith" that Jude spoke of. "When the Son of the Man comes" refers to the time of Jesus second appearing. (Hebrews 9:28) Therefore, by asking this question, Jesus was stating that "the faith" once delivered in the first century would be very hard to find when he comes the second time. Jesus knew that there was to be an apostasy, and that, as a result, most of his servants, when he returned, would like a servant who does not fully know the Master's will, as he illustrated in Luke 12:48.

See what I have written on the parable of the four servants in another forum at:

http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=466.0

Isaiah, in prophesying concerning the stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:23) to both the houses of Israel (Romans 9:6,31; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 10:18; Galatians 6:16), warns us: "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20, New King James Version) The "law", of course, is what we call the Old Testament; the "testimony" of this prophecy is the testimony of the apostles, as given in the New Testament. This the way to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1) It is to these and through these scriptures that the holy spirit today gives true direction, and anything not in agreement with these scriptures is not of the light of the day. (John 11:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) The distortion of who Jesus truly was and is -- who while on earth before his death was only human, a little lower than the angels, who gave his flesh for the life of the world -- is one of the greatest stumblingblocks to understanding the true Gospel revealed in scripture. Thus Jesus becomes a stumbling stone, not only to the house according to the flesh which was corrupted from true doctrine (Israel after the flesh -- Luke 13:25-28; Romans 9:30-33), but also the house which claims Jesus, which has also become corrupted from true doctrine through spiritual fornication. -- Matthew 27:21-23; Revelation 2:13-15,20-24.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is the firstborn creature, existing with his God and Father -- whom he identifies as "the only true God", before the world began. -- John 1:1; 6:62; 17:1,3,5; Colossians 1:15; Revelaton 3:14.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13,22; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus receives his inheritance and dominion (power) from Yahweh. His power and authority is given to him by his God, his Supreme Being. Jesus is not Yahweh [his God and Father] who gives him this dominion, all authority and power (with the evident exception of God himself -- 1 Corinthians 15:27), yet the exercise of this power and authority by Jesus is all to the praise of Yahweh, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. The Bible writers never claimed that Jesus is the ultimate "source" of his own power. -- Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38; Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is anointed [made christ, the anointed one] by Yahweh. He is not Yahweh who thus anoints him. -- Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is son of the only Most High, Yahweh. Jesus is never spoken of as the "Most High"; he is not the only Most High Yahweh of whom he is the son. -- Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is given the power of life in himself from Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh who gives him this power. -- 1 Samuel 2:6; Psalm 36:9; John 5:21,25-29.

God, by means of his holy spirit, through the scriptures reveals that Jesus is the servant of Yahweh; he is not Yahweh whom he serves. -- Isaiah 42:1; 53:11; Matthew 12:18; John 3:16,17; 5:30,36; 6:38,44; 8:29,38,42; 10:36; 13:16; 17:3; Acts 4:27,30; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 10:5; 1 John 4:9,10.

The fact is, however, that there is not any proof at all in the scriptures of a God existing as three co-equal, co-eternal, co-substantial persons. You will not find one scripture about such a God. The idea has to added to and read into all the scriptures that are given to support such an idea. The conclusion is that the holy spirit reveals that Jesus is not Yahweh who has made Jesus to sit at the right hand of Yahweh. -- Psalm 110:1; Matthew 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-40; Luke 20:39-47; Acts 2:34; Ephesians 1:20-22; Hebrews 1:3,13; 10:12,13; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22.

The scriptural conclusion is that God, through his holy spirit, is telling us that Jesus is not Yahweh whom he worships (serves as a servant, prays to) as his God. -- Deuteronomy 6:13; Deuteronomy 10:20; Isaiah 42:1; 53:11; Matthew 4:10; 12:18; 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 4:8; John 13:16; 17:1,3; 20:27; Acts 4:27,30; Hebrews 1:9; Revelaton 2:7; 3:12.

Jesus is never described as the father of Jesus, and Yahweh is never described as the son of Yahweh. The term "everlasting father", if applied to Jesus as recorded in Isaiah 9:6, should be seen as referring to Jesus' role toward mankind that he purchased, and of whom he has become father as the second or "last Adam." (Romans 5:15-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45,47; Psalm 45:16) Jesus came in the name of Yahweh his Father. (Deuteronomy 18:15,18; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1) Yahweh never came in the name of any other than himself; thus, since there is none higher, he swore by himself. -- Hebrews 6:13

The expression, EL GIBBOR -- Mighty God, if applied to Jesus, should be seen as referring to the power and authority given to him by the Mighty EL that is mightier than he, the only true Supreme Being, Yahweh. The plural of the Hebrew phrase translated "Mighty God" in most translations in Isaiah 9:6 is used in Ezekiel 32:21, where it is used of earthly rulers, not God Almighty. -- Psalm 2:2,7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 61:1; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; John 17:1,3; Acts 2:36; Hebrews 1:2,6.

See:

http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html

The Hebrew word for "God' is "EL" and various formations made from that word: ELOAH, ELOHIM, etc. The basic Greek word used to correspond to these Hebrew words for "God" is "THEOS," and forms of that word.

No scripture says that Jesus was God Almighty in the flesh, although possessing the mighty power of Yahweh as did Moses, he could be referred to as God (ELOHIM, THEOS) in a manner similar to Moses. (Exodus 7:1; Deuteronomy 18:15,18; Acts 3:18-22) Neither in the case of Moses nor Jesus does this make either of them into God Almighty who gives them their power and authority. Anytime in the scriptures that the Hebrew and Greek words for God are applied to others than Yahweh, including the son of Yahweh, these words should be understood in a more general sense of might, power, strength, etc. Many translations often do this in the Old Testament.

Let us note John 10:34,35, where Jesus quotes/references Psalms 82:1,6, where both forms of the Hebrew word EL and ELOHIM are applied the sons of the Most High, the sons to whom the Logos came (as Jesus explained). In John 10:34,35, the word ELOHIM is rendered as THEOI, the plural of THEOS. According the King James Version, God [ELOHIM] standeth in the congregation of the mighty [EL]. (Psalm 82:1) In reference to the sons of the Most High, the KJV renders the term EL as "the mighty." I believe that the KJV is correct in this rendering. Applying this scriptural principle to THEOS in John 1:1, we would likewise have "the Logos was mighty."

This is not the only place that the KJV renders forms of the words EL (Strong's Hebrew #410) and ELOHIM (Strong's Hebrew #430) with terms showing mightiness or strength. Here are a few scriptures: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The point is the King James translators, in all these verses, did not render the words for deity/divinity [EL,ELOHIM] as "God" or as "god", but with terms of might, strength, great, power and might. Likewise, without adding to the scriptures, we should come to the same conclusion regarding such application of these words to the son of Yahweh.

As I noted earlier, God's spirit is likened to his finger, or his mouth. The Holy Spirit is not directly called "God" in the scriptures, although some can read that thought into Acts 3:17,18 and 2 Corinthians 3:17,18. However, in principle, the Holy Spirit, being the personal power of God which extends from God, is essentially God, but nothing in this would mean that the Holy Spirit is a supposed "person" of God.

Additionally since there are many others (persons and things) who/that are also legitimately referred to as "god(s)" in the scripture (they are not "false" gods, as are the idols of the heathen), logically in order to keep these all as one God, we would have to add many more the who make up that one God, including Moses (Exodus 7:1); the sons of God to whom the Word of God came (John 10:34,35; Psalm 82:1,6); all the angels (Psalm 8:5; 86:6-8; 95:3; 50:1; Hebrews 2:7,9); the judges of Israel who performed as a body by the power given to by Yahweh. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [see Acts 23:5]); rulers; the EL of the hand.

As to the God innate, that is, the Power, Might, Innate, there is only one God, who is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3

All others who are legitimately called "god(s)" in the Bible are not the one true God, including Jesus, because these all receive their power and authority from the one true God. Thus they are called EL, ELOHIM, THEOS, (the Hebrew and Greek words for "god", "mighty, might", etc.), in a different manner than of innate Godship, which only belongs the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. If one honestly studies the usage of the words for God in the Hebrew and Greek, it becomes solidly plain that this is so, for like many other words, there is an exclusive usage that is applied to Yahweh, and relative usages that are applied to others, including Jesus.

========

See my study on "Hebraic Usages of the Titles of God"

http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html

What I have found is that trinitarians have to add assumptions to, and read assumptions into all of the scriptures they present to support their contention in order to make the scriptures appear to fit the trinitarian dogma of three persons in one God. Usually they do not think of themselves as adding anything to the scriptures in doing this, although, in actuality, if we start examining in detail the scriptures in light of what the trinitarians claim, we do find that they have to add a lot to the scriptures to have them agree with the trinitarian dogma.

Many trinitarians then seem to think that one should simply accept their added-on reasoning as proof that the trinity is true; indeed, many claim that their acceptance of the trinity is evidence that they have God's spirit, and will often claim that one cannot have God's spirit who doesn't accept their added-on philosophy. And thus a sectarian spirit develops on both sides. Today, while the sectarian spirit does not usually lead to persecutions such as physical torture, murders, rapes, etc. (all in the name of Christ), as history records, it does often lead to name-calling, slandering, judgments supposedly passed on behalf of God, and excommunication of fellow Christians (again all in the name of Christ).

Christians have no reason, however, to add this theology about three persons in one God to the Bible, since the Bible is totally complete and harmonious without the trinitarian dogma, or adding to the scriptures the "three persons in one God" formula. It is better to simply take the scriptures in the usage of its own terms rather than to resort to such a drastic change, with a series of assumptions, additions, etc., to the scriptures as demanded by the trinitarian formula.

Christian love,

Ronald

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Sep 13 2008, 12:07 PM)

(sigh) The point is that AFTER one becomes a Chrisitan, they will learn about Jesus' deity, the virgin birth, as those things are primary and essential to the Christian faith. No one is claiming that one is, or is not a Christian on the basis of their understanding of those things.

Thank you. Then you agree that one does not have to have an understanding to be a Christian.

Did I stutter??? As I said, no one at least neither me nor smiles made said anything different.

QUOTE

Believe me, I understand what is being brought forth, but the wording is not right. The list is put to us in such a way that we are not a Christian until we believe all on the list.

NO, that is the value YOU are assigning to it. Which is why I am here to correct your incorrect assumptions about her post.

Funny, you just admitted above that you agree with me, yet you feel you have to correct me.

I agree with your theology on this issue, but I not agree with your interpretation of smile's post.

QUOTE

QUOTE

Yes, because of how the list was delivered as factual and required to be accepted in order to be a Christian.

No it was not. Smiles said no such thing, nor was such a thing implied. Her point was that a true Christian will not reject those items. Really, it is so simple.

Yes, it is and I fail to see how you can not see that the way it was worded, people may read it different then you.

Yes, I understand that people read it differently, as is evidenced in this thread. That is why I am correcting their understanding of what she meant.

QUOTE

QUOTE

Allow me to ask, when a child is born, is this child required to understand things before it is considered to be a human, or is this child a human even though the child has no understanding?

Remember, we are discussing salvation, not maturity.

Your question is based on a false premise with regard to smiles' statement.

That would be true if the only true premise is the one you hold. Sorry, Shiloh, but we all do not see through your eyes, nor do we think through your mind, not do you hold the only way to interrupt any statement given. Quite arrogant of you to feel that you hold the one and only way to see things that have been placed in front of us to consider.

The problem is that smiles has been on this board long enough and I have read enough of her posts both here and have read her remarks in chat to know that she did not mean to say what is being misattributed to her by you, and others on here.

I have read her posts many times where she has stated that salvation is by grace though faith in Christ alone, and so your "interpretation" of her words makes no sense, like it or not, and I am not going to sit here and let you or anyone else misrepresent her intentions. It is fairly easy to see that she what she meant for anyone who is willing to approach her words with shred of honesty and commonsense.

I am sorry if it offends your pride, but you have read her wrong.