To be free or not to be free... 'That is the question'

[LadyRaven]

If all those possibilities of middle knowledge exist in all times and places it is definitely a contradiction to Calvinism, or at least High Calvinism, as I believe.

However, if God is in complete control over all of these, having an end worked out for all of them before they happen, then I see, so far, nothing that makes it heretical. If they move toward the thought that there would be things He cannot control, know, or cause, then you move into Open Theism which is wrong. But so far in my short studies on it, I have not found anything unorthodox about it.

The concepts play with your mind a bit though, like quantum physics.

[LadyRaven]

Well I do not think Mudcat is saying God did a simulation just that He would know how we would react under different circumstances, which I believe to be feasible. Outside of this belief that God knows all reactions of all people under any circumstance (which God would know, He is God) I think it Molinism sounds identical to Arminianism to me.

It isn't identical to historical Arminianism, though I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly how. It has to do with the concept of middle knowledge in the first place. Which is hard to explain. I'm still reading it.

I can say that it's a fascinating concept for the concept's sake (I like to do this. I take things I dont necessarily believe and like to play with the ideas for a while. It's odd and sometimes confusing, but if you are able, it's fun.). It's like the whole concept of an alternate universe (or several of them) or the concept that alternate realities exist for different choices.

I remember reading a book, written for kids no less which explored the possibility of alternate universes for different choices. The wise person told the child that if you were to flip a coin to decide something, until you called the drop, all possibilities existed, literally in an alternative universe. Then when you called it, some disappeared, but not all, as the drop had not been made. then when the drop was made and you saw it, the possibilities that existed were even smaller, having to do with your reaction (would you accept the drop or no). Once your decision was made, only one universe existed.

I wonder why I even went into that now. I think I need to eat something...

[ayin jade]

I dunno. I get the sense that in your beliefs that God can "miss the boat" and cause someone to live a life in a way that they dont have a chance at the gospel. Which would make God a failure. But then I tend towards calvinism, and to me, all those whom He will save, will be saved no matter what they do in their lives or how their life is lived. They will still end up believing. Thats also my objection to armenianism. That someone could lose out on Him through their actions, or the actions of another. Makes it works based and not grace based to me.

Hope that makes marginal sense at least. My sandwich is calling my name and Im never good at posting when Im distracted by lunch.

[LadyRaven]

I'll have to do some research to find out exactly what this theological view is, however based upon your example, I would say that it's not that far away from Arminius' view. According to DAISY God's election is based upon the choices that we make according to our will. It is not that God does not know what we will choose, He just bases His election on those choices, knowing the outcome. The only element you are adding to it is that God knows all the possibilities as well.

Emphasis mine, Ovedya. That is it in a nutshell.

Well I do not think Mudcat is saying God did a simulation just that He would know how we would react under different circumstances, which I believe to be feasible. Outside of this belief that God knows all reactions of all people under any circumstance (which God would know, He is God) I think it Molinism sounds identical to Arminianism to me.

It isn't identical to historical Arminianism, though I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly how. It has to do with the concept of middle knowledge in the first place. Which is hard to explain. I'm still reading it.

Myself an Arminian and Mudcat a Molinist seem to agree that Out side the belief that God knows all possibilitys (which I as an Arminian do not reject) it is identical.

Why would you an outsider to either system of belief come in and say that it is not?

So far, from what I gather, it does seem to line up with Arminianism in some aspects, in the sense that the nature of what the will is seems close if not identical. It also does share with Calvinism a sense of God's sovereignty. God who created you knows you so well that not only does He know what you will do, but what you could have done. It seems to be an attempt to marry the two extremes.

Still the concept of Middle Knowledge itself does not exist in either historical Calvinism or Arminianism, and that is why I can say that it is not the same as either..

[OneLight]

Hi! My name is OneLight, and I am a ......

I am a ... ...

ahhhhh ......

hmmmm ......

CHRISTIAN!

Sorry ... couldn't resist toady ... gotta be the rain?

[Guest HIS girl]

God is also aware of what choices we would have made in other circumstances. For instance, what decisions I would have made had I been born in a tribal village in the Amazon jungle vs. the rural Southern USA, or if had been born where I am but had a different 2nd grade teacher, etc..).

I tried to put forward something similar to that not long ago on WB but didn't get my point across very well as I confused many. : )

What I was trying to get at is - where we are now - is it exactly where God WANTS US to be. I was born because my Dad went to PNG INSTEAD of the Phillipines and my Mum married my Dad instead of her "arranged" fiance (custom in her village), so when the LORD says that He knew me before I was born...was He referring to my Soul or ME, the fleshly body I was given being born of my parents? OR even though my Dad wasn't a Believer, did God still work through him to set up my birth because He planned before Creation I was to be born in that circumstance ?

I'd like to believe He wanted me just as I am NOW.

Abd BTW, I Believe what the Bible says so I am a Child of God's!!

[BlindSeeker]

I personally find all this feasible only if God Himself where trap in time as creation is.

But God inhabits eternity and see all things.

There is no need for God predestining anyone to a certain end or His being so infinitely knowing that that the infinite amount of compounded choices in an individual's life be understood that He could correctly predict one's final out come.

Yes, we have free will, but that doesn't mean we cannot sell ourselves into slavery and addiction of sin . . . but that doesn't remove our ability to cry out in our affliction either.

We have freedom of choice that does have definite consequences.

[Mudcat]

I dont like it to be honest.

I am not sure what it adds to God to add in this infinite array of possibilities and scenarios that God worked out ahead of time.

I dont think there is any Biblical support for it.

It seems to go against Occam's razor, which I think is a good way to look at things...

one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed

or in other words...

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

Hey RG,

As to Biblical support....

I would submit

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Emphasis mine. Christ is making a specific reference to something that did not occur. But had it occurred, can we deny his words as to what the outcome would've been?

Thanks for bringing the "Ole Razor" forward...and Occam was quite an intelligent fellow.

I must say I am not married to the philosophy, however if I put the 'razor' to the quoted passage, does it reveal something different?

What do you think?

Edited September 28, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

If all those possibilities of middle knowledge exist in all times and places it is definitely a contradiction to Calvinism, or at least High Calvinism, as I believe.

However, if God is in complete control over all of these, having an end worked out for all of them before they happen, then I see, so far, nothing that makes it heretical. If they move toward the thought that there would be things He cannot control, know, or cause, then you move into Open Theism which is wrong. But so far in my short studies on it, I have not found anything unorthodox about it.

The concepts play with your mind a bit though, like quantum physics.

Sounds like you've done some homework

[Mudcat]

Well I do not think Mudcat is saying God did a simulation just that He would know how we would react under different circumstances, which I believe to be feasible. Outside of this belief that God knows all reactions of all people under any circumstance (which God would know, He is God) I think it Molinism sounds identical to Arminianism to me.

There is a subtle difference. It is subtle but it is a difference.

Molinism answers the question of free will and sovereignty, but it opens up a can of worms that relates to perfection.

Why would God, being perfect, conceive of anything less than perfect, or at the least less perfect than what is most perfect?

It sounds like I am arguing against myself, but I am hashing this out in my head....no sense in being secretive about that.