Spiritual Journey

[BlindSeeker]

This is something alot of Arminians don't understand. God wants us to reach out to the lost, and Calvinists feel that quite strongly. In fact, the modern missionary movement was started by Calvinists who had a strong heart for the lost. This is a change in my own heart I certainly did not expect; yet here it is. God works in ways we don't understand. Instead, I just study the Bible and follow His leading.

But why reach out to the lost if they won't / can't be saved because they are not part of "the elect?"

I once read in a catechism book of the presbyterian church that you cannot tell somebody that Jesus died for their sins because you do not know if they are truly part of the elect.

[Xan]

This is something alot of Arminians don't understand. God wants us to reach out to the lost, and Calvinists feel that quite strongly. In fact, the modern missionary movement was started by Calvinists who had a strong heart for the lost. This is a change in my own heart I certainly did not expect; yet here it is. God works in ways we don't understand. Instead, I just study the Bible and follow His leading.

But why reach out to the lost if they won't / can't be saved because they are not part of "the elect?"

I once read in a catechism book of the presbyterian church that you cannot tell somebody that Jesus died for their sins because you do not know if they are truly part of the elect.

Having only been attending a Presbyterian church for 3 months, I can't answer what's in the catachism. What I do know is the Lord has blessed us with the grace for reaching out to the unsaved. The Holy Spirit goes before us, and Christians are called to bring in the harvest. Since we don't know who will accept Christ and who will reject Him, the gospel is to be preached to the whole world.

[Xan]

For me, what makes this difficult is even though none of us deserve salvation, and we all deserve hell, when I had an Arminian viewpoint, it didn't bother me so much that people rejected Christ because I thought they had a choice. Now my soul aches for the lost in such a strong way it never has. I have spent much time in prayer for the lost since Sunday.

This statement confuses me. Are you saying that you did not feel compelled to pray for the lost because they had a choice and since they did not choose Christ, it didn't bother you, but now that they don't have a choice, you feel compelled to pray for them? If this is the case, then with the thought of predestination, they are destined to die in their sin, so what good is prayer if they are going to burn anyway?

Will be looking for you answer ... thanks!

OneLight

This is something alot of Arminians don't understand. God wants us to reach out to the lost, and Calvinists feel that quite strongly. In fact, the modern missionary movement was started by Calvinists who had a strong heart for the lost. This is a change in my own heart I certainly did not expect; yet here it is. God works in ways we don't understand. Instead, I just study the Bible and follow His leading.

First, let me assure you that I carry only one title, and that is Christian. If any other title is placed on me, it is not by my hands.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the thought in Calvinism is that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not, right? So, in my mind, I see a list with two columns in Gods hand. On the right are the names of the saved and on the left, the lost. If a person is destined to be with God, or not to be with God, there is nothing we can or can not do to change this fact, so why do anything? Do you believe it is possible to change Gods predestined list by praying for those that are lost, if in fact, God has already made up His mind?

You must understand I'm new to this theology, actually 2 days new; however, it's written in scripture. Because I'm new to this, some questions are hard to answer,so I asked my fiance' (who, BTW never pushed this on me. He rarely spoke of his beliefs, and in time, I saw it for myself as I mentioned in my blog and in this thread), and this was his answer:

"We spread the Gospel because God has called us to. Our activity is not based on how important we are to the process, but it is based on the command of our Savior who loved us and gave Himself for us. Far from demeaning us, this means that God gives us the privilege of participating in His work, and the fact that he goes about the humanly impossible task of saving sinners through our sharing the Gospel means that we can spread it with confidence that people will come to know Christ.

It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners, so we share the hope with everyone that Christ's death accomplished salvation for people like them."

[OneLight]

You must understand I'm new to this theology, actually 2 days new; however, it's written in scripture. Because I'm new to this, some questions are hard to answer,so I asked my fiance' (who, BTW never pushed this on me. He rarely spoke of his beliefs, and in time, I saw it for myself as I mentioned in my blog and in this thread), and this was his answer:

"We spread the Gospel because God has called us to. Our activity is not based on how important we are to the process, but it is based on the command of our Savior who loved us and gave Himself for us. Far from demeaning us, this means that God gives us the privilege of participating in His work, and the fact that he goes about the humanly impossible task of saving sinners through our sharing the Gospel means that we can spread it with confidence that people will come to know Christ.

It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners, so we share the hope with everyone that Christ's death accomplished salvation for people like them."

This is why I keep my belief as simple as it is meant to be. Allow me to reiterate my stance from post #4...

I hold a very simple belief. God chose every single person that ever lived, yet, He knew from the beginning of time who would accept Him and seek Him, through our free will, and who would not.

God Bless,

OneLight

[BlindSeeker]

. . . It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners . . .

But not all sinners, right?

[Xan]

. . . It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners . . .

But not all sinners, right?

This is the best way I can answer this question considering I had the same qualms for years, and this was the final scripture that finally made me see predestination is Biblical:

Ephesians 1: 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

[traveller]

. . . It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners . . .

But not all sinners, right?

This is the best way I can answer this question considering I had the same qualms for years, and this was the final scripture that finally made me see predestination is Biblical:

Ephesians 1: 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

I don't see how that verse convinced you?

[Xan]

. . . It is true that we don't know for whom Christ died. We know that He died for sinners . . .

But not all sinners, right?

This is the best way I can answer this question considering I had the same qualms for years, and this was the final scripture that finally made me see predestination is Biblical:

Ephesians 1: 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

I don't see how that verse convinced you?

It was the final scripture after believing in and living out my faith in God in accordance to Reformed theology, after reading other scriptures that support the belief, after reading what other Calvinists have said, after asking occasional theological questions to a Calvinist, and after explaining Calvinism to people who don't understand it; hence the title of the blog and thread "Spiritual Journey". After ALL of that, as I wrote in my blog, I was doing my Bible study Sunday, and I read that passage which says God chose us and He predestined us according to His will. To truly explain, one would had to have followed me around for the past 5 months and listened to my prayers. It is not one scripture by itself, as compelling as it is with regards to predestination, that made me realize this is how God purposed things so that it is not of us but of God that we receive both justification and sanctification. Romans 9:11-13 shows that God called us to election so that it is not of our own works that we answer the call.

[BlindSeeker]

Recently, I debated someone who has a false impression of what Calvinism is, so this is what I told her: "No sinner ever makes himself choose God and His holiness. It is God who chooses us. Calvinists believe God's election is unconditional and sovereign. John 15:16 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.'

This verse bears some scrutiny. Why did Jesus chose them? Was it because they were so wicked that the wonders of His transforming grace might be evident to all to see? Or was it that these were men who in their common trades had uncommon religious convictions and hunger for the things of God?

Christ choosing them as Apostles for the establishment of the gospel is evident of His ability to know men

[Xan]

For me, what makes this difficult is even though none of us deserve salvation, and we all deserve hell, when I had an Arminian viewpoint, it didn't bother me so much that people rejected Christ because I thought they had a choice. Now my soul aches for the lost in such a strong way it never has. I have spent much time in prayer for the lost since Sunday.

i believe in free will, but i'm beginning to see that it may be six of one, half dozen of the other. what interests me is why the burden for the lost came on you. in no way do i want to lay a guilt trip on you, but i have to ask: why wasn't the burden there before? from your posts, it almost seems like because you don't know who has been chosen, you're more motivated. please don't take this wrong. your love and ache for the lost is a very good thing. i shamefully admit that mine is lacking. and i think i'd like to know what actually raised yours so much, in the hopes that i can raise mine also. is it our calousness in thinking "they are without excuse"?

i don't know that i've stated my question very well or that you can really answer it. i was just very intrigued by your statement about a much deeper care for the lost than ever before. i want some!

I think that is exactly it. Maybe I was callous in thinking they are without excuse, which is shameful. That's the closest I have to understanding why the sudden change. I asked my fiance' about this, and he told me it's a pretty common reaction when someone adopts this theology. It is pretty exciting to have this great love for the lost, and I wanted to share all of this with my Worthy buddies.