oneness vs trinity

[BlindSeeker]

Floatingaxe,

I have had this post in response to one of your posts and you as of yet have not responded. May I ask why?

[BlindSeeker]

I believe that every time God is said to have appeared to men, it was Jesus, pre-incarnate, as in Melchizedek ("He was priest of God Most High"). The Lord doesn't correct me on it, so I will continue to believe it. It doesn't interfere at all with how the Word of God presents Jesus as God incarnate. In fact, it has been the right thing to believe.

Are you saying Melchizedek was actually Jesus?

[BlindSeeker]

The name Elohim is a plural noun and is literally Gods.

Larry,

If

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with the "oneness" view is that it cofuses being with "person."

God refers to being. "God" is not a name. Unfortunately in our vernacular refer to "God" as if that were His Name. The term "God" refers to being or essence.

The terms "Father," "Son" and "Holy Spirit" refer to persons. The problem with this mystery is either our inability or refusal to make the necessary distinctions between being and person.

The problem with oneness is that it tries to cast the trinitarian view as one of making one being equal three beings, or one person equal three persons, and thus the trinitarian view comes off as irrational. The truth is that many oneness people mistate what the trinitarian view actually is, and then argue against that false perception.

Part of the confusion lies in the concept of "The Son of God." The term "Son of God" refers to equality with God. The term "Father" and "Son" with respect to The Father and Jesus are not the same as the paternal relationship between a human father and his son. The terms simply denote rank. "Son of" in Hebrew denotes a comparativeness in relationship.

[BlindSeeker]

Great verse, a good one to back up the Trinity, they are one, yet there are two of them.

Certainly that would be the perception of ones natural senses.

Nevertheless, the Lord's Christ is none other than Christ the Lord . . . and there is but one Lord.

Lu 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is

Christ the Lord

.

Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen

the Lord's Christ

.

De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our

God is one LORD

:

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be

one LORD

, and His name one.

Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel;

The Lord our God is one Lord

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and

one Lord Jesus Christ

, by whom are all things, and we by Him.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5

One Lord

, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[BlindSeeker]

Much of what Shiloh wrote I would be in agreement, but with some I would not. However, since Brother Shiloh and I are still perfecting our effectual reasoning together, I chose to submit some of my thoughts on the phraseology

[BlindSeeker]

I have to tell you that from this list of verses, I have no idea which side of the debate you are on

Probably closer to the middle than anyone else here.

[Guest shiloh357]

Nevertheless, the Lord's Christ is none other than Christ the Lord . . . and there is but one Lord.

De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Yes, but one "Lord" as it is used in Hebrew does not mean entity or being. The purpose of emphazing God's oneness is not express one entity or being, but to contrast the Heberw faith with the polythestic religions that surrounded Israel.

Furthermore the term used in both Zechariah 14:9 and Deut. 6:4 is "echad." If either Moses or Zechariah were wanting to refer to only one entity or being they would have used the word "yachid" not to be confused with "yachad." Furthermore, if Moses and Zechariah wanted to comunicate oneness in the sense of absolute one, they would have chosen the word "Elohim" as that denotes essence or being. Rather they chose to declare the Name of God which denotes person not essence or being.

So to say the God is one Lord, from the Hebrew it is refering to a unity of persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise one God, but separate persons.

[BlindSeeker]

I'm not sure why I am posting since my posts seem to be completely ignored, but . . .

You may want to look into the verse . . .

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

Verse 7. There are three that bear record] The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or logov, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY GHOST, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, AEthiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, &c., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

Link to commentary

I am not sure why you think you were ignored,

Simple, because I have posted in response to other peoples posting and they have not responded.

. . . but I am not really sure of what your point is with this verse. There have been dozens upon dozens of verses given for the Trinity. I agree that it is a mistake to hang too much on one verse, especially one that is in question.

I was merely pointing out that trinitarians cannot hang much credibility on this verse for support for their side.

[BlindSeeker]

Nevertheless, the Lord's Christ is none other than Christ the Lord . . . and there is but one Lord.

De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Yes, but one "Lord" as it is used in Hebrew does not mean entity or being. The purpose of emphazing God's oneness is not express one entity or being, but to contrast the Heberw faith with the polythestic religions that surrounded Israel.

Furthermore the term used in both Zechariah 14:9 and Deut. 6:4 is "echad." If either Moses or Zechariah were wanting to refer to only one entity or being they would have used the word "yachid" not to be confused with "yachad." Furthermore, if Moses and Zechariah wanted to comunicate oneness in the sense of absolute one, they would have chosen the word "Elohim" as that denotes essence or being. Rather they chose to declare the Name of God which denotes person not essence or being.

So to say the God is one Lord, from the Hebrew it is refering to a unity of persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise one God, but separate persons.

Here's just the first few of over 700 possible examples "echad" meaning absolute one, not a unified one -

Ge 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one <