oneness vs trinity

[traveller]

May I interrupt with a question to both sides?

The personality of God, in the old testament seems very different to me than that of Jesus. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? And why, if you have, would this be if He is One, for clearly He is One whether your stance is Oneness or Trinitarian.

Sorry for the interruption

[Guest shiloh357]

May I interrupt with a question to both sides?

The personality of God, in the old testament seems very different to me than that of Jesus. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? And why, if you have, would this be if He is One, for clearly He is One whether your stance is Oneness or Trinitarian.

Sorry for the interruption

He really isn't any different at all. It's all a matter of perception.

I think one the biggest mistakes we made with how we arranged the Bible was by dividing it up into OT and NT.

It creates a false perception about God and about the Scriptures thesmelves.

What I mean is that there is an unspoken assumption by many Christians that in the OT, God was all about Judgment and that the sacrifices were how peolpe God saved and that when Jesus came, he provided a "new" means of salvation.

The truth is that God was all about grace and mercy in the OT. People point to the judgments of God in the OT which seem to protray God as an angry vengeful God as evidence that He is radically different than the God of the NT. Yet, what they fail to see is how long God pleaded and implored His people to repent. That is why He sent the prophets: To get the people to repent so that He would not have to judge.

God's judgements were not done out of revenge or some sadistic desire to reek havoc. They were done out of a broken heart, by a God who simply could not compromise His holiness. He didn't want to pour out judgment, but His people's stubbornness and rebelliousnes left Him with no choice.

Even when Jesus prophesied judgment it was not out of vengence:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Matthew 23:37-38)

Can't you hear the heartbreak and the sorrow in His voice? Can't you imagine the tears streaming down His face, as He speaks to Jerusalem as a rejected lover? If you have ever professed your love to someone only to have it rejected, you might know to a degree the sadness Jesus must have felt.

God gave the people of Noah's day 120 years to repent. He gave Israel/Judah generations to repent before the exiles into Assyria and Babylon.

Even today, Jesus' 2nd coming is delayed only because of the fact that He is not willing that any shold perish but that all should come to repentance. While the world mocks us as we wait for what they see as a fairytale, and they see his delay as evidence that we are hoping in vain, it is His delay that is an act of mercy for their sakes.

In the OT, people were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith. the only difference is that their faith was in the Messiah to come and our faith is in the Messiah who has come. Both OT and NT believers put their faith in the same Messiah, the only difference was their vantage point.

The book of Revelation bears out that God is still just as intolerant of sin and wickedness as He ever was. It is just that by the time we get to Revelation, His patience has been exhausted by man's blind, stubborn, rebellion.

[Floatingaxe]

if you can not give passages from the Bible to back up what you are saying then it is not supported Biblically, it is that simple.

this is not an insult, this is a fact.

As I was saying, it's all biblical.

[Floatingaxe]

May I interrupt with a question to both sides?

The personality of God, in the old testament seems very different to me than that of Jesus. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? And why, if you have, would this be if He is One, for clearly He is One whether your stance is Oneness or Trinitarian.

Sorry for the interruption

He really isn't any different at all. It's all a matter of perception.

I think one the biggest mistakes we made with how we arranged the Bible was by dividing it up into OT and NT.

It creates a false perception about God and about the Scriptures thesmelves.

What I mean is that there is an unspoken assumption by many Christians that in the OT, God was all about Judgment and that the sacrifices were how peolpe God saved and that when Jesus came, he provided a "new" means of salvation.

The truth is that God was all about grace and mercy in the OT. People point to the judgments of God in the OT which seem to protray God as an angry vengeful God as evidence that He is radically different than the God of the NT. Yet, what they fail to see is how long God pleaded and implored His people to repent. That is why He sent the prophets: To get the people to repent so that He would not have to judge.

God's judgements were not done out of revenge or some sadistic desire to reek havoc. They were done out of a broken heart, by a God who simply could not compromise His holiness. He didn't want to pour out judgment, but His people's stubbornness and rebelliousnes left Him with no choice.

Even when Jesus prophesied judgment it was not out of vengence:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Matthew 23:37-38)

Can't you hear the heartbreak and the sorrow in His voice? Can't you imagine the tears streaming down His face, as He speaks to Jerusalem as a rejected lover? If you have ever professed your love to someone only to have it rejected, you might know to a degree the sadness Jesus must have felt.

God gave the people of Noah's day 120 years to repent. He gave Israel/Judah generations to repent before the exiles into Assyria and Babylon.

Even today, Jesus' 2nd coming is delayed only because of the fact that He is not willing that any shold perish but that all should come to repentance. While the world mocks us as we wait for what they see as a fairytale, and they see his delay as evidence that we are hoping in vain, it is His delay that is an act of mercy for their sakes.

In the OT, people were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith. the only difference is that their faith was in the Messiah to come and our faith is in the Messiah who has come. Both OT and NT believers put their faith in the same Messiah, the only difference was their vantage point.

The book of Revelation bears out that God is still just as intolerant of sin and wickedness as He ever was. It is just that by the time we get to Revelation, His patience has been exhausted by man's blind, stubborn, rebellion.

God is the same today as always, and Jesus is the expression of His mercy because He is extending it to us--withholding His wrath for the sake of Jesus who is busy building His Church, gathering His sheep.

[BlindSeeker]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 7 2008, 09:51 PM)

When Jesus said "nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven," Jesus was not referring to His humanity. He was make a direct and obvious connection to the prophecy in Daniel.

I can agree with you here, but I feel it goes beyond your statement.

I believe Jesus was saying directly to the charge of the high priest that he personally would witness the man in front of Him literally coming in the clouds executing God

[BlindSeeker]

Nonetheless, here are the views of a handful of other commentators:

None of whom disagree with the point I made, so I am not even sure why you are offering them as if they somehow contradict the issue I raised.

You continually amaze me Shiloh. I posted them because they reiterated the position I stated. I certainly fail to see how they support your position.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 7 2008, 09:54 PM)

QUOTE

Here's just the first few of over 700 possible examples "echad" meaning absolute one, not a unified one -

Doesn't matter Blindseeker. What matters is how it is used in the in terms of "one" Lord. The fact remains that when it is used in terms of God's oneness in the scriptures I referred to earlier, it does not mean absolute one. I am simply relying on proper hermeneutics.

Oh? Really?

Well I respect your view though I disagree with it.

Again, doesn't matter if you disagree with it. It is not "my view." It is simply hermeneutic fact. You can pepper me with verses all you want, but word usage always trumps the lexical definitions of words. It works that way in English as well. That is why we can easily use the word "love" in connection with both the opposite sex and our favorite pet in the same breath without any confusion over what we mean. Word usage always determines how a word is to be understood in a given context. It does not matter if echad is used differently in 700 other places. The truth is that the word "echad" is used 21 different ways in Hebrew, depending on the context.

So dissagreeing with me is pointless if you cannot demonstrate hermeneutically that echad in Deut. 6:4, for example, MUST be understood as you see it.

Thank you again Shiloh for again sharing your own personal perspective this echoing third time. I admit it is hard to debate the issue when you support your opinion with such irrefutable support . . . oh wait . . . you didn't. Simply saying "it is not 'my view,' it is simply hermeneutic fact," does not provide sufficient substance for thorough persuasion however.

By the way, disagreeing with you is not pointless . . . regardless what you personally think. Just because you are persuaded doesn

[BlindSeeker]

May I interrupt with a question to both sides?

The personality of God, in the old testament seems very different to me than that of Jesus. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? And why, if you have, would this be if He is One, for clearly He is One whether your stance is Oneness or Trinitarian.

Sorry for the interruption

He really isn't any different at all. It's all a matter of perception.

I think one the biggest mistakes we made with how we arranged the Bible was by dividing it up into OT and NT.

It creates a false perception about God and about the Scriptures thesmelves.

What I mean is that there is an unspoken assumption by many Christians that in the OT, God was all about Judgment and that the sacrifices were how peolpe God saved and that when Jesus came, he provided a "new" means of salvation.

The truth is that God was all about grace and mercy in the OT. People point to the judgments of God in the OT which seem to protray God as an angry vengeful God as evidence that He is radically different than the God of the NT. Yet, what they fail to see is how long God pleaded and implored His people to repent. That is why He sent the prophets: To get the people to repent so that He would not have to judge.

God's judgements were not done out of revenge or some sadistic desire to reek havoc. They were done out of a broken heart, by a God who simply could not compromise His holiness. He didn't want to pour out judgment, but His people's stubbornness and rebelliousnes left Him with no choice.

Even when Jesus prophesied judgment it was not out of vengence:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Matthew 23:37-38)

Can't you hear the heartbreak and the sorrow in His voice? Can't you imagine the tears streaming down His face, as He speaks to Jerusalem as a rejected lover? If you have ever professed your love to someone only to have it rejected, you might know to a degree the sadness Jesus must have felt.

God gave the people of Noah's day 120 years to repent. He gave Israel/Judah generations to repent before the exiles into Assyria and Babylon.

Even today, Jesus' 2nd coming is delayed only because of the fact that He is not willing that any shold perish but that all should come to repentance. While the world mocks us as we wait for what they see as a fairytale, and they see his delay as evidence that we are hoping in vain, it is His delay that is an act of mercy for their sakes.

In the OT, people were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith. the only difference is that their faith was in the Messiah to come and our faith is in the Messiah who has come. Both OT and NT believers put their faith in the same Messiah, the only difference was their vantage point.

The book of Revelation bears out that God is still just as intolerant of sin and wickedness as He ever was. It is just that by the time we get to Revelation, His patience has been exhausted by man's blind, stubborn, rebellion.

I would agree whole heartedly with Shiloh's words here (and I am moved when his heart is speaking). But I would add that I feel it also to do with God being "justified in the Spirit" via His incarnation and His Passion made irrefutably evident through the work of the cross.

God's authority had been challenged when a third of the angels rebelled and God still allowed at least Satan access into heaven as witness by the book of Job. Nonetheless God maintained His absolute position and authority as an unshakable sovereign.

But after the incarnation when God became manifested in the flesh, I believe God irrefutably proved Himself worthy of all glory, honor and power and thus created a turning point for all created beings' understanding and experience of the intimacy of God desired for both humanity and the angelic host.

That is why I believe these verses are important

Edited October 8, 2008 by BlindSeeker

[traveller]

May I interrupt with a question to both sides?

The personality of God, in the old testament seems very different to me than that of Jesus. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? And why, if you have, would this be if He is One, for clearly He is One whether your stance is Oneness or Trinitarian.

Sorry for the interruption

He really isn't any different at all. It's all a matter of perception.

I think one the biggest mistakes we made with how we arranged the Bible was by dividing it up into OT and NT.

It creates a false perception about God and about the Scriptures thesmelves.

What I mean is that there is an unspoken assumption by many Christians that in the OT, God was all about Judgment and that the sacrifices were how peolpe God saved and that when Jesus came, he provided a "new" means of salvation.

The truth is that God was all about grace and mercy in the OT. People point to the judgments of God in the OT which seem to protray God as an angry vengeful God as evidence that He is radically different than the God of the NT. Yet, what they fail to see is how long God pleaded and implored His people to repent. That is why He sent the prophets: To get the people to repent so that He would not have to judge.

God's judgements were not done out of revenge or some sadistic desire to reek havoc. They were done out of a broken heart, by a God who simply could not compromise His holiness. He didn't want to pour out judgment, but His people's stubbornness and rebelliousnes left Him with no choice.

Even when Jesus prophesied judgment it was not out of vengence:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Matthew 23:37-38)

Can't you hear the heartbreak and the sorrow in His voice? Can't you imagine the tears streaming down His face, as He speaks to Jerusalem as a rejected lover? If you have ever professed your love to someone only to have it rejected, you might know to a degree the sadness Jesus must have felt.

God gave the people of Noah's day 120 years to repent. He gave Israel/Judah generations to repent before the exiles into Assyria and Babylon.

Even today, Jesus' 2nd coming is delayed only because of the fact that He is not willing that any shold perish but that all should come to repentance. While the world mocks us as we wait for what they see as a fairytale, and they see his delay as evidence that we are hoping in vain, it is His delay that is an act of mercy for their sakes.

In the OT, people were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith. the only difference is that their faith was in the Messiah to come and our faith is in the Messiah who has come. Both OT and NT believers put their faith in the same Messiah, the only difference was their vantage point.

The book of Revelation bears out that God is still just as intolerant of sin and wickedness as He ever was. It is just that by the time we get to Revelation, His patience has been exhausted by man's blind, stubborn, rebellion.

I would agree whole heartedly with Shiloh's words here (and I am moved when his heart is speaking). But I would add that I feel it also to do with God being "justified in the Spirit" via His incarnation and His Passion made irrefutably evident through the work of the cross.

God's authority had been challenged when a third of the angels rebelled and God still allowed at least Satan access into heaven as witness by the book of Job. Nonetheless God maintained His absolute position and authority as an unshakable sovereign.

But after the incarnation when God became manifested in the flesh, I believe God irrefutably proved Himself worthy of all glory, honor and power and thus created a turning point for man

[BlindSeeker]

Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise [man] glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty [man] glory in his might, let not the rich [man] glory in his riches:

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I [am] the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Now - back to your regularly scheduled program

That is one of my favorite verses.

I think you have placed a smile on my face that I shall wear all day long.

[Floatingaxe]

if you can not give passages from the Bible to back up what you are saying then it is not supported Biblically, it is that simple.

this is not an insult, this is a fact.

As I was saying, it's all biblical.

and as I was saying, if you cant give a biblical (as in verses and passages) defense of an idea, it is not biblical.