Question for fellow believers

[kross]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

[Mom2Many]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality?? I do understand that we are supposed to love others' as Christ would, but loving them and supporting and backing up choices that are obviously not Biblical are two different things to me??

Thank you all who can help me out here!

M2M -

I have a clarifying question for you, if you will.

Do you find it just as hard to understand how somene can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support gossiping?

A simple but important question.

shalom

shlomo

Wow! I leave to run some errands and there's a lot to respond too! Let me try and start here.

No, I don't support "gossiping". Talking about other people just isn't something that I think supports anything Biblical. Now, I will go on to say, that if I knew someone was going to hurt themselves or someone else, I do not by any means think going and getting them help is a form of gossiping. But to talk about others and their private lives just for fun isn't the right thing to do.

Now, back to the OP, Colbalt said it very well. To turn a blind eye to abortion or homosexuality, or any other sin for that matter is supporting the sin. I think it's very hopeless to think we can't change laws. The Pro-Choice movement and the Homosexuals have changed laws, that's why abortion is now legal and so are homosexual marriages. I believe God is bigger than that and HE can change laws and HE can work on the hearts of those that need help through us.

As a nation, we have to show our disagreement and non-support for issues like I've stated. If we keep our voices quiet and we make sure we're not heard, then how can the hearts of anyone be worked on?

[Mom2Many]

That was my point about gossip.

It is sin, just like abortion and males having sex with males are sin.

No difference in God's eyes. Sin is Sin.

Looking at a woman in lust is no different than adultary with her.

We pick our battles.

Why do we pick abortion and same-sex relationships to fight but not the smaller stuff that the Church sortof winks at?

I think that it is becuase we pick the sin that we *know* we are not and can not be guilty of ourselves.

Since we might partake in gossip or lustful thoughts or false judgment or hating our brother w/o cause,

I think that we avoid these as causes and pick the bigger ones to rally against.

That way we feel comfortable in our criticism and can justify our actions ...

I hope it didn't come off as criticism on my part, I really didn't mean for my question to come off that way.

It is much easier to point out others' faults, rather than point out our own. And most people, Christians' included get very defensive when someone else points out their faults. I think what has raised the question for me about abortion and homosexuality is with the upcomming election, so many Christian's are going to be voting for a man that is Pro-Choice and it really confused me. I didn't and still really don't understand the logic in all of that.

I personally don't rally against abortion because I feel it's a bigger matter, it's just one of those things that have pressed heavily on my heart and I feel that it needs to addressed rather than swept under the carpet and ignored. So many woman need help and direction and I feel there isn't enough of a support network for those who have gone through it at one time or are thinking about going through it.

[exrockstar]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality??

that's why i let go the Democratic philosophy a long time ago.

[Rick-Parker]

I hope it didn't come off as criticism on my part, I really didn't mean for my question to come off that way.

It is much easier to point out others' faults, rather than point out our own. And most people, Christians' included get very defensive when someone else points out their faults. I think what has raised the question for me about abortion and homosexuality is with the upcomming election, so many Christian's are going to be voting for a man that is Pro-Choice and it really confused me. I didn't and still really don't understand the logic in all of that.

I personally don't rally against abortion because I feel it's a bigger matter, it's just one of those things that have pressed heavily on my heart and I feel that it needs to addressed rather than swept under the carpet and ignored. So many woman need help and direction and I feel there isn't enough of a support network for those who have gone through it at one time or are thinking about going through it.

Well said, and no, your question didn't come across as criticism.

The criticism I was referring to was from those who actively oppose such things.

And your response also brings up a bigger issue for me that has always seemed to cause almost as much division in the Church as the whole rapture thing!

I don't see Jesus ever getting involved in politics.

He warned His disciples not only of the leaven of the Pharisees (religion) but also the leaven of Herod (politics).

He never attempted to force the Truths of His Kingdom on other people.

He didn't come to change the world, He came to save it.

We are taught that we are in the world not of the world.

That His Kingdom is not of this world and that we are just passing thru.

If He was not at all interested in changing the secular law nor interested in forcing what He knew to be Truth onto people as law, then why should we? I just never get that. WWJD right? And we know what He did.

Well, I guess that is how people can justify forfeiting their Christian values when it comes to social and economic issues. Abortion is a "personal matter" and homosexual activity is "a genetic predisposition." Shame!

[Fraught]

I don't think I really made my question clear.

I don't understand how someone can say they are a Bible believing Christian and then say abortion or homosexuality is ok. I've heard many Christian's lately say they support Pro-Choice and they are in favor of homosexual marriages and I just don't understand how someone can be a Christian and still be in favor of those things that are clearly unbiblical??

this is the position of the christian democrats i know: that although they are not in favor of these things personally, they are in favor of a person's right to choose. what they support is that freedom of choice. they do not feel they have the right to dictate what others do with their life or to judge them for it.

[Mom2Many]

That was my point about gossip.

It is sin, just like abortion and males having sex with males are sin.

No difference in God's eyes. Sin is Sin.

Looking at a woman in lust is no different than adultary with her.

We pick our battles.

Why do we pick abortion and same-sex relationships to fight but not the smaller stuff that the Church sortof winks at?

I think that it is becuase we pick the sin that we *know* we are not and can not be guilty of ourselves.

Since we might partake in gossip or lustful thoughts or false judgment or hating our brother w/o cause,

I think that we avoid these as causes and pick the bigger ones to rally against.

That way we feel comfortable in our criticism and can justify our actions ...

there is merit in what you say. however, gossip doesnt snuff out a life. nor does it spread diseases. a sin is a sin in God's eyes, but different sins have different consequences. the consequences of gossip may or may not be great. but the consequences of abortion and homosexuality are great--to individuals and to this nation. therein lies the difference. and i know people who dont gossip, but they dont go around proclaiming the badness of it. why? not because they are free from that contamination, but because its not a worthy cause to fight for. there are a lot of people who have had abortions who proclaim the sinfulness of it. there are people coming out of homosexuality, who know very well that there is a danger of them falling back into it, who proclaim the evils thereof.

we pick our battles, yes. but i dont think we all pick our battles based on what we're innocent of. there are some things "we" dont talk about, yes. and we're all guilty of it. but abortion and homosexuality are things that have huge consequences and have a huge impact on our nation. to say the only reason we fight this battle is because we're not guilty of the sin, is, i think, doing a great disservice to a lot of christians.

Amen Char! You couldn't have said that any better! The part in your post that I bolded is exactly what I was talking about not enough support for these women. So many have gone through this and just have no where to turn for help once it's over. They are so afraid of judgement and not being accepted that they are missing out on the true message. And those that are considering it, they have no where to go for help or other choices because of the same reasons.

[kross]

I hope it didn't come off as criticism on my part, I really didn't mean for my question to come off that way.

It is much easier to point out others' faults, rather than point out our own. And most people, Christians' included get very defensive when someone else points out their faults. I think what has raised the question for me about abortion and homosexuality is with the upcomming election, so many Christian's are going to be voting for a man that is Pro-Choice and it really confused me. I didn't and still really don't understand the logic in all of that.

I personally don't rally against abortion because I feel it's a bigger matter, it's just one of those things that have pressed heavily on my heart and I feel that it needs to addressed rather than swept under the carpet and ignored. So many woman need help and direction and I feel there isn't enough of a support network for those who have gone through it at one time or are thinking about going through it.

Well said, and no, your question didn't come across as criticism.

The criticism I was referring to was from those who actively oppose such things.

And your response also brings up a bigger issue for me that has always seemed to cause almost as much division in the Church as the whole rapture thing!

I don't see Jesus ever getting involved in politics.

He warned His disciples not only of the leaven of the Pharisees (religion) but also the leaven of Herod (politics).

He never attempted to force the Truths of His Kingdom on other people.

He didn't come to change the world, He came to save it.

We are taught that we are in the world not of the world.

That His Kingdom is not of this world and that we are just passing thru.

If He was not at all interested in changing the secular law nor interested in forcing what He knew to be Truth onto people as law, then why should we? I just never get that. WWJD right? And we know what He did.

WOW. I think that you are the first person I have heard who says what I say on ths issue. I'm so excited.

IN JESUS' times they waited until they were born and then burned them on the alter. JESUS never had HIS followers lay down in the road to block the way to the temples. Teaching the truth overcomes all.

[kross]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

No one knows the abortion rate prior to it being legalized. A greter percentage of women died as a result of their aborting thier babies in those days. Many abortions were done in back alley "Butcher shops". How many illegl abortions and deaths would take place right now if it were made illegal?

Like it or not, it has been made into a right in this country. When you start taking away what people see as a right, they choose to continue in the action anyway.

When it becomes illegal to serve JESUS, will you stop or will you continue? Your attitude about that will be no different than the attitude of someone else who feels they have had a right taken away.

Just for the record, the Bible says to mourn when a child is born and rejoice when a person leaves this world and goes to JESUS. If that child skipped the evils of this world and went streight to GOD, that is not a bad thing in my eyes. Please do not give me grief about "then we should kill them all". You get the point. That is why the condition of the mother, and the condition of our nation, matters more to me.

As far as your last sentence, GOD is the only one who decides how far out of control sin gets. HIS promise is that if HIS people would do what they are supposed to, HE would fix the rest. HE has always used the ungodly to chastise HIS people. So, maybe the idea of thinking that our government can control that which GOD has decided not to is the real sin issue here. Truth is, GOD is the real power and HE has made promises to HIS people.

I can not seem to stress enough that our getting caught up in using the weapons of this world to fight a spiritual war is only going to make things worse. We have the power and the weapons to defeat sin in the world if we defeat it in the churches first.

And let me make this one point, call it prophetic insight or just a lot of study in the nature of GOD;

If GOD has not chosen to fix an issue (within the time frame that you think it should be) and you go to some other means to try to fix it, it just might be that you think that other source has more power than GOD. That realy ticks HIM off. That is why the effort to use politics and laws and the other weapons of this world do not work. The more we try to do these things in our own power, the more GOD is backing off and letting us give it a go.

Only an unhindered faith in GOD and tust that HE has it under control will win the day. "Let go and let GOD" as they say. Preach, teach, exhort, and shout the truth from the rooftops and you will get results for greater than you will ever get by any other means. Just because our churches teach us that praying alone is not enough, does not make it so. I promise you that if GOD's people would put these issues in GOD's hands and put an absolute trust in HIM, HE would live up to that trust.

WOW, I almost got on my soap box there. I try not to put that much meat in a post for fear of choking the babes.

[stormy612]

Well said, and no, your question didn't come across as criticism.

The criticism I was referring to was from those who actively oppose such things.

And your response also brings up a bigger issue for me that has always seemed to cause almost as much division in the Church as the whole rapture thing!

I don't see Jesus ever getting involved in politics.

He warned His disciples not only of the leaven of the Pharisees (religion) but also the leaven of Herod (politics).

He never attempted to force the Truths of His Kingdom on other people.

He didn't come to change the world, He came to save it.

We are taught that we are in the world not of the world.

That His Kingdom is not of this world and that we are just passing thru.

If He was not at all interested in changing the secular law nor interested in forcing what He knew to be Truth onto people as law, then why should we? I just never get that. WWJD right? And we know what He did.

WOW. I think that you are the first person I have heard who says what I say on ths issue. I'm so excited.

IN JESUS' times they waited until they were born and then burned them on the alter. JESUS never had HIS followers lay down in the road to block the way to the temples. Teaching the truth overcomes all.

yes, another example is the woman caught in the act of adultery.

In Jesus time, a fornicating woman would be stoned to death (even though it was not uncommon for a Jewish husband to arrange to have his wife killed so he could take another woman "legally"!), and Jesus knew this. But He never mobilized forces to change that law nor did He even speak against it. He simply spoke the Truth to that woman and those wanting to carry out the law of the land to execute her.

The statements made here about the consequences of different sin being different are very true.

None-the-less, Jesus did not promote any political action against even the sin with the worst possible consequences. He did minister life, hope, and restoration into the lives of those affected by sin; sin both great and small. But He never sought to "outlaw" that sin.

WWJD today ... ?!

Thank you both for this wisdom. My spirit is stirred within me. This gives me more insight in to how to comfort people and how not to be so judgemental. I hear His voice.