John 16 Question

[glorywatch]

Kross, good answer. Actually all of the answers are good and they make me think. I have no idea what the exact reason is, only what I understand about it. I so enjoy reading others thoughts on this. It makes me use the old brain more.

Although I do have a lightening mind.....a brilliant flash and then total darkness

Lightening mind, eh? I never knew there was such an apt description of mine.

And yes , I am enjoying seeing others thoughts, as well.

Isn't it nice to be in good company!

[traveller]

Kross, good answer. Actually all of the answers are good and they make me think. I have no idea what the exact reason is, only what I understand about it. I so enjoy reading others thoughts on this. It makes me use the old brain more.

Although I do have a lightening mind.....a brilliant flash and then total darkness

Lightening mind, eh? I never knew there was such an apt description of mine.

And yes , I am enjoying seeing others thoughts, as well.

Isn't it nice to be in good company!

Brilliantly pleasing.

[Ovedya]

Your answer is actually in John 14:

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.

...

16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

17 Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

19 Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.

20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

...

25 These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you;

26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you call things and remind you of all the things which I have said to you.

27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 You have heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

There are a lot of "comings" in these verses. It's important to know which ones the Lord is referring to. The Lord's goal in this passage was to prepare the disciples for His death and to insure comfort for them in the hour of the Lord's trial and death.

There were several "stages" involved with the Lord's death that are important to know: In His crucifixion Jesus conquered sin and Satan. In His death and resurrection He conquered the power of death. In His ascension Jesus was made Lord and Christ. Now He's in the stage of enthronement, in which He is administrating in the new creation as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. After the Lord conquered death and was in the stage of resurrection He returned to His disciples. This was the "coming" He described in John 14:18, "I will not leave you as orphans, I am coming to you." In the sequence of events after His death, this was actually the Lord's first "coming" in resurrection. According to John 20:22 the Lord, in resurrection, breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples. This was the fulfillment of His promise here in John 14. What is interesting to note from this is the fact that, here in John 14 the Lord said the Father was to send the Holy Spirit, yet in John 20:22 it's the Lord who gives the Spirit. This simply shows us that even in His resurrection Jesus carried out the Father's work in sending the Spirit.

Yet there is another "coming" that we are waiting for. That is what we typically refer to as "the second coming" of Christ. In this coming, the Lord will return to us in the stage of enthronement (In which stage He is now) as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is the "coming" He described in verse 3 above. The Lord's "preparation" is in the heavens, in the Father. Today the Lord is preparing a place for us, however, we have the Spirit of Reality living within us as the present reality of the age to come. This is why the Lord referred to the Spirit as the "Spirit of Reality" in verse 17. The Holy Spirit is not just our Comforter in this age to comfort us, to be our peace, etc., but He is The Spirit of Reality, Who makes known the Reality of the Triune in our spirit. In this reality we may live by Him, experience the fullness of the Triune God in this age, and experience a "miniature" of the coming kingdom in this age, today.

So to summarize, the Lord's first "coming" was in the stage of resurrection. In this stage the Lord dispensed the Spirit into the disciples (And when we fist believed we experienced the same dispensing), making known the reality of the Triune God, and fulfilling His promise to leave the Spirit of Reality with them (and us) as an instructor, caretaker and Comforter until the Lord's return. The Lord's second "coming" will be in the stage of enthronement, as the King of kings and Lord of lords, when He will return to His prepared Bride (Prepared through the process of transformation by the Spirit), will consummate the age, and will issue in the Millennial kingdom in reality.

[traveller]

The more I write, the more I find I do not know the real answer to your question. But, I think this is part of it.

Truer words were not spoken here. We've all got parts of the answer, but never the whole thing. I think that's why we are instructed to gather together.

JMPO.

Amen brother. I think God's word is absolutely amazing. There's so many gems in there, and I have so many questions. I think it's good to mull things over.

[traveller]

Your answer is actually in John 14:

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.

...

16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

17 Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

19 Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.

20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

...

25 These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you;

26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you call things and remind you of all the things which I have said to you.

27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 You have heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

There are a lot of "comings" in these verses. It's important to know which ones the Lord is referring to. The Lord's goal in this passage was to prepare the disciples for His death and to insure comfort for them in the hour of the Lord's trial and death.

There were several "stages" involved with the Lord's death that are important to know: In His crucifixion Jesus conquered sin and Satan. In His death and resurrection He conquered the power of death. In His ascension Jesus was made Lord and Christ. Now He's in the stage of enthronement, in which He is administrating in the new creation as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. After the Lord conquered death and was in the stage of resurrection He returned to His disciples. This was the "coming" He described in John 14:18, "I will not leave you as orphans, I am coming to you." In the sequence of events after His death, this was actually the Lord's first "coming" in resurrection. According to John 20:22 the Lord, in resurrection, breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples. This was the fulfillment of His promise here in John 14. What is interesting to note from this is the fact that, here in John 14 the Lord said the Father was to send the Holy Spirit, yet in John 20:22 it's the Lord who gives the Spirit. This simply shows us that even in His resurrection Jesus carried out the Father's work in sending the Spirit.

Yet there is another "coming" that we are waiting for. That is what we typically refer to as "the second coming" of Christ. In this coming, the Lord will return to us in the stage of enthronement (In which stage He is now) as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is the "coming" He described in verse 3 above. The Lord's "preparation" is in the heavens, in the Father. Today the Lord is preparing a place for us, however, we have the Spirit of Reality living within us as the present reality of the age to come. This is why the Lord referred to the Spirit as the "Spirit of Reality" in verse 17. The Holy Spirit is not just our Comforter in this age to comfort us, to be our peace, etc., but He is The Spirit of Reality, Who makes known the Reality of the Triune in our spirit. In this reality we may live by Him, experience the fullness of the Triune God in this age, and experience a "miniature" of the coming kingdom in this age, today.

So to summarize, the Lord's first "coming" was in the stage of resurrection. In this stage the Lord dispensed the Spirit into the disciples (And when we fist believed we experienced the same dispensing), making known the reality of the Triune God, and fulfilling His promise to leave the Spirit of Reality with them (and us) as an instructor, caretaker and Comforter until the Lord's return. The Lord's second "coming" will be in the stage of enthronement, as the King of kings and Lord of lords, when He will return to His prepared Bride (Prepared through the process of transformation by the Spirit), will consummate the age, and will issue in the Millennial kingdom in reality.

wowie zowie brother! You just covered it all the way up the millennium! Good read! Now I have more thinking to do.

shhhhh - do y'all hear that? It's the sound of tiny brain cells dying.

[EricH]

The idea is not that Jesus and the Holy Spirit cannot for some metaphysical reason be here at the same time. The idea is that the coming of the Holy Spirit is connected with the age of the kingdom (Isaiah 11:1-10; Isaiah 42:1-4; Ezekiel 11:17-20 etc). But God's reign could not begin until the sacrifice had been paid.

[BlindSeeker]

the Holy Spirit now indwells within us instead of upon us- the cleansing justification making that possible through blood of our Lord.

Here are just a quick few OT verses of the Spirit "in" man.

Ge 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man

in

whom the Spirit of God is?

Ex 31:3 And I have

filled

him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Nu 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man

in whom

is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

De 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was

full

of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Da 6:3 Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was

in

him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm.

[BlindSeeker]

The idea is not that Jesus and the Holy Spirit cannot for some metaphysical reason be here at the same time. The idea is that the coming of the Holy Spirit is connected with the age of the kingdom (Isaiah 11:1-10; Isaiah 42:1-4; Ezekiel 11:17-20 etc). But God's reign could not begin until the sacrifice had been paid.

EricH, could you expound on this statement some? Maybe toss in a verse or two?

[Ovedya]

the Holy Spirit now indwells within us instead of upon us- the cleansing justification making that possible through blood of our Lord.

Here are just a quick few OT verses of the Spirit "in" man.

Ge 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man

in

whom the Spirit of God is?

Ex 31:3 And I have

filled

him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Nu 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man

in whom

is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

De 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was

full

of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Da 6:3 Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was

in

him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm.

The sense that the Old testament uses with respect to the Spirit is really not "within" as it is used in the New Testament. The Holy Spirit could never have indwelt the patrons of the Old Testament era, since the sacrifice of Christ had not made the Spirit available to man.

[Botz]

Your answer is actually in John 14:

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.

...

16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

17 Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

19 Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.

20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

...

25 These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you;

26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you call things and remind you of all the things which I have said to you.

27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 You have heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

There are a lot of "comings" in these verses. It's important to know which ones the Lord is referring to. The Lord's goal in this passage was to prepare the disciples for His death and to insure comfort for them in the hour of the Lord's trial and death.

There were several "stages" involved with the Lord's death that are important to know: In His crucifixion Jesus conquered sin and Satan. In His death and resurrection He conquered the power of death. In His ascension Jesus was made Lord and Christ. Now He's in the stage of enthronement, in which He is administrating in the new creation as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. After the Lord conquered death and was in the stage of resurrection He returned to His disciples. This was the "coming" He described in John 14:18, "I will not leave you as orphans, I am coming to you." In the sequence of events after His death, this was actually the Lord's first "coming" in resurrection. According to John 20:22 the Lord, in resurrection, breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples. This was the fulfillment of His promise here in John 14. What is interesting to note from this is the fact that, here in John 14 the Lord said the Father was to send the Holy Spirit, yet in John 20:22 it's the Lord who gives the Spirit. This simply shows us that even in His resurrection Jesus carried out the Father's work in sending the Spirit.

Yet there is another "coming" that we are waiting for. That is what we typically refer to as "the second coming" of Christ. In this coming, the Lord will return to us in the stage of enthronement (In which stage He is now) as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is the "coming" He described in verse 3 above. The Lord's "preparation" is in the heavens, in the Father. Today the Lord is preparing a place for us, however, we have the Spirit of Reality living within us as the present reality of the age to come. This is why the Lord referred to the Spirit as the "Spirit of Reality" in verse 17. The Holy Spirit is not just our Comforter in this age to comfort us, to be our peace, etc., but He is The Spirit of Reality, Who makes known the Reality of the Triune in our spirit. In this reality we may live by Him, experience the fullness of the Triune God in this age, and experience a "miniature" of the coming kingdom in this age, today.

So to summarize, the Lord's first "coming" was in the stage of resurrection. In this stage the Lord dispensed the Spirit into the disciples (And when we fist believed we experienced the same dispensing), making known the reality of the Triune God, and fulfilling His promise to leave the Spirit of Reality with them (and us) as an instructor, caretaker and Comforter until the Lord's return. The Lord's second "coming" will be in the stage of enthronement, as the King of kings and Lord of lords, when He will return to His prepared Bride (Prepared through the process of transformation by the Spirit), will consummate the age, and will issue in the Millennial kingdom in reality.

Very interesting answer Ovedya...but I must say I have never ever heard the Holy Ghost referred to as 'The Spirit of Reality,' in place of 'the Spirit of Truth,' and the title does not sit well with my spirit...it really has a 'new age' feel to it...I mention this not to get side-tracked from Travellers 'quest', but just in passing.

Part of the ministry of Jesus in a way is comparable to that of his friend and relative John the Baptiser, for as John prepared people for the ministry of the L-rd...and the One who would baptise with the Holy Ghost, so Jesus took this a step further and demonstated that indeed He would do so, but it would be AFTER He returned to the Father....and so He prepared them for that baptism.

On top of what the L-rd has been saying to His disciples in these few chapters, and their extreme difficulty in grasping the enormity of what He has revealed, we also see the humanity of our Saviour because He even tries...in a very beautiful and typically Jewish way...to take the sting out of the bad news about the necessity of His departure, and cheer them up with the advantages to them personally of when He is gone...eg.,,

John 16:7

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.