JESUS = Rabi?

[Guest shiloh357]

This is fascinating, Shiloh.

Can you handle all of the questions? Maybe you could tell us where you learned it, and we could learn it too.

My knowledge is a amalgamation of everything I have read and learned over the years. As for the nine orders of Pharisees, please read Rabbi John Fischer's paper entitled "Jesus and Early Judaism." It is relatively inexpensive. Dr. Fischer has an extensive education and professional background and is more than "knowledgable" in the areas of which he speaks:

Dr. Fischer was born in Budapest, Hungary in 1946 to survivors of the Holocaust. He immigrated to the United States in 1949. He married 4 Jun 1972 to Patrice and they have two children: Eve and Seth.

Education

• B.S. in Bible, Philadelphia College of Bible, 1970
  
• M.S. in Communications, Temple University, 1970
  
• M.A. in Testament, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1972
  
• B.J.S. in Jewish Thought, Spertus College of Judaica, 1978
  
• Ph.D. in Education / Religion, University of South Florida, 1987. Dissertation: The Development of a Core Curriculum for a Messianic Jewish Yeshiva
  
• Th.D. in Judaic Studies, California Graduate School of Theology, 1989. Dissertation: Messianic Services for Festivals and Holy Days
  
  
  Professional Experience
  
  
  • Visiting Faculty in Jewish Studies, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1975 -1981.
    
  • Professor and Chairman of Department of Judaic Studies, St. Petersburg Theological Seminary, 1985 - present.
    
  • Dean, St. Petersburg Theological Seminary, 1989 - 2002.
    
  • Vice President of Academic Affairs, St. Petersburg Theological Seminary, 1994 - present.
    
  • Rosh Yeshiva, Betzel Shaddai Yeshiva, 1977-1981
    
  • Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva Institute of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, 1991 - 1998.
    
  • Rosh Yeshiva, Netzer David International Yeshiva, 1998-present.
    
  • Rosh Yeshiva, Harcourt Samuel Messianic Yeshiva, 1999-present.
    
  • Adjunct Faculty in Religious Studies, St. Petersburg Junior College, 1991 - present.
    
  • Lecturer, Messianic Yeshiva of the Ukraine, 1998-present.
    
  • Visiting Professor: King of Kings College, Jerusalem, July 1993, June 1995
    
  • Visiting Professor: Johann Amos Comenius College, Reichelsheim, Germany, July 1995, January 1997, May 1997
    
  • Staley Distinguished Scholars Lecturer, Lancaster Bible College, March 1997
    
  • Annual Biblical Lectureship, St. Louis Christian College, April 1998
    
  • Guest lecturer: Oakton Community College, Triton College, College of Lake County, University of Illinois Chicago Circle
    Campus, Northeastern Illinois University, Millersville University, Temple University, University of Pennsylvania, Wheaton Graduate School, Moody Bible Institute, Lancaster Bible College.
    
  • Director of Training, American Messianic Fellowship, 1973 - 1974.
    
  • Vice President, The Watchmen Association, 1975 - 1978.
    
  • Vice President, B'rit Shalom, 1978-1981
    
  • Deputy Secretary in North America, International Messianic Jewish Alliance, 1981-1984.
    
  • Executive Director, Menorah Ministries, 1984 - present.
    
  • Founder and Spiritual Leader, Congregation B'nai Maccabim, Highland Park, IL, 1975 -1981.
    
  • Founder and Rabbi, Congregation Ohr Chadash, Clearwater, FL, 1982 - present.
    
  • Contributing Editor, MESSIANIC OUTREACH, 1987 - present.
    
  • Contributing Editor, MISHKAN, 1991 - present.
    

  He is, as you can see, not some fly by night flash in the pan that makes up wierd doctrines or strange unsubstantiated claims. He is quite the "academic."

  QUOTE

  The truth is that the Pharisees comprised of nine orders and tens of thousands in number were the largest religious sect in 1st century Israel and the only one to survive the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. In fact, modern Judaism is what Pharisaism turned into after the destruction of the Temple.

  What do you mean by nine orders? Did they all agree 100% with the teachings of the Bible? Were they just in different areas, or were they nine different ones because there were things they could not agree on?

  What I mean is that there nine basic schools of thought within Pharisaism. The two main schools were that of Hillel and Shammai. In fact, they were the two largest and for some reason, many misunderstand them to be the ONLY schools of thought.

  It is no different today in modern Judaism. Within ultra-Orthodox Judaism (Hasidic) there are various groups such Chabad, Breslov, Bratslov, Ger, etc. They differ mostly on the particulars of tradition (Halakha). Judaism, today, is far from a monolith. You cannot really say, "the Jews believe 1,2,3" It just can't be nailed down like that. But then Christianity isnt much different.

  Each one of those groups of pharisees debated with each other over just about everything. While the Pharisees had many beliefs in common there were other issues pertaining to "halakhah" (the how-to of Judaism) over which they debated vigorously.

  Many of the debates Jesus had were over halakah, for example, when the Pharisees complained that Jesus violated the Sabbath by healing on it, or when his disciples ate before ritually washing their hands. Those all pertained to halakhic debates and such debates were not at all uncommon within various pharisaical orers.

  When Jesus was challenged on the issue divorce He was making a halakhic argument.

  Jesus was able to criticize the Pharisees with regard to their hypocrisy for two reasons:

  1. Jesus was Himself, never a hypocrite.

  2. Jesus was one of them. He was a Rabbi and His teachings mirror most closely those of Hillel. That is not to say that Jesus derived his wisdom and teachings from Hillel, but it means that Jesus was able to draw from sources His contemporaries were familiar with. He was able to use their own teachings to show them their hypocrisy and how they had perverted true Torah observance. It also speaks well of Hillel that Jesus would see Hillel's teachings as a useful means of making his point. Jesus even made allusions to the Talmud itself in His teachings as well.

  The Pharisees were much closer to the Bible's teachings than were either the Saducees or the Essenes. The Pharisees were not perfect, but they were not the evil, villainous group that many Christians have been misled to believe them to be. I would also credit much of the misunderstanding to a lot of the movies on the life of Christ which always portrays the pharisees as a bunch ofwicked men, seething with hatred when that could not be further from the truth. Unfortunately, most Christians have gone even further and projected their negative views of the pharisees onto the Jewish people as a whole, and suddenly Jesus' criticism of SOME of the Pharisees, suddenly becomes twisted by modern Chrisitanity as a diatribe against the Jews en masse, and this serves to foment more antagonism between Christians and Jews.

  Jesus was a man of His times, and He studied what they studied. Jesus was fully Jewish in every way that a person could be Jewish. Christianity has sought to separate Jesus from His Jewishness in order justify its own personal antagonism and the stigma it has placed on Jewish culture and the Jewish people as well.

[Mom2Many]

So far I haven't read anywhere that Jesus was a student of any one. His Authority came directly from God.

Remember He was teaching at the age of 12? (When Joseph and Mary were looking for Him).

Would a student of letters at 12 have known enough to hold the Scribes spellbound in the Temple?

I don't think so - His teaching was different. He was UNLIKE the scribes because He taught with authority and that authority was from God and had the full force of His power behind it.

My opinion. : )

Hi!

I homeschool my children and we are just about to read a book on some of the things that have been mentioned. It's kinda cute, because this is written so a 2nd grader can understand, which made it that much more easier for me to understand

What I read so far is, boys in Jesus's time began school around the age of 6 just like they do today. School was held in the synagogue. The boys' studied The Old Testament part of the Bible until they were 10 years old. After studying the Bible the boys' would learn the Jewish law that wasn't in the Bible. At the age of 12 or 13 years of age, most boys' were finished with school. When a boy turned 13 years old, he was indeed considered a man and therefore he was expected to know by heart 20 special verses from the Old Testament. All the children learned about back then was Scripture and the Jewish laws. They didn't learn anything else when they were going to school. So I believe that a child of the age of 12 would and probally was well schooled in knowing the Scribes. Synagogues' at that time were used not just for worshipping purposes but for school as well. It would not have surprised me to see Jesus in the temple at the age of 12 teaching others'. Most boys' at that age were already done with their own schooling. Also, yes, Jesus's Authority came from God in Heaven, but he would not have had the Authority to teach in one of the synagogues' unless he had gone through the schooling that was required of every small boy living in Jesus's time.

For me it was easy to dismiss a lot of things I had been taught about Jesus's time because I always said, "The Bible doesn't say that!" But then I got thinking and learned from others' that although the Bible doesn't say it, Jesus did grow up at a different time than us, a different culture. And just as we have laws and rules we must obey for fear we'll end up in jail or worse, so did people from Jesus's time. So most likely, Jesus and his family was subject to those laws just like anyone else would have been. He would have had to go to school and he would have had to gain authority from a human in order to teach openly in the synagogues or else fear being tossed in jail.

Ok, just thought I'd share with others' what I read!

[Guest shiloh357]

For me it was easy to dismiss a lot of things I had been taught about Jesus's time because I always said, "The Bible doesn't say that!" But then I got thinking and learned from others' that although the Bible doesn't say it, Jesus did grow up at a different time than us, a different culture.

I think you have hit on a good point.

The problem in much of this is that Bible is book of its times. It was written by Jews who thought and lived like Jews. Its perspective or frame of reference is Hebraic. That means that there is terminology and phraseology that will be characteristically Hebraic in flavor, and God did not circumvent Jewish culture; Rather, He utilized it to express Himself to the world.

There are alot of cultural distinctives that are present in the Bible that are not expanded upon or explained. The human authors assumed their immediate audience would not need them to elaborate on what would have been culturally familiar to them. If you wrote to friend in another part of the US and mentioned that you "love to see Old Glory paint the wind," your friend would immediately know what you are referring to. However, 1,000 years from now, that phrase might need some explanation as to how it relates to 21st century American culture.

The Bible is a book in history written to a people in history. It is a book of real places, real people and real events.

Mart DeHaan from rbc ministries makes the following remarks:

"The uniqueness of the Christian faith is that it is rooted in historical and geographical fact."

(snip)

The life, death, and bodily resurrection of Jesus are not just a matter of faith. Together they form a storyline that claims to be rooted in real places, times, and witnesses.

As so many have pointed out over the years, that kind of claim is significant. People don

[Massorite]

JESUS was called Rabi/Raboni by people. This means teacher.

In a couple fo posts I have seen people say that JESUS was a travelling teacher. That this was a position within the religeous community.

In essence, JESUS was licensed to preach by some man made religious order that gave HIM HIS authority. It is because of this authority that HE was allowed to preach in the temple

This seemed to be the foundation for the idea of HIM having a vocation as a traveling teacher.

I believe JESUS was not associated with any religious order and did not have any religious group behind HIM.

HE was allowed to teach in the temple because the people had declared HIM a teacher sent from GOD and the religious leaders of the day feared the people. In addition, they had a desire to give HIM enough rope to hang HIMSELF, which HE never did.

I mentioned this verse, John 7:15, where the Jews said, "How does HE know the scriptures, since HE hasn't been trained"

It seems odd to me that this statement would be made and then HIS training be acknowledged for the purpose of speaking in the temple.

So, I am wondering, how many Orthodox, believing Christians believe that JESUS was part of an organized religion that gave HIM authority to preach in the temple?

If you believe this, can you tell me what church or seminary might have taught it to you. I am curious if it is a wide spread belief or limited to a particular church denomination or seminary.

Thank you.

You should study up on the order of the Nazarenes who were raised to be prophets and we all know that Jesus was a Nazarene.

[kross]

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order. Even though I can see how one could come to that conclusion with what is being said and the scriptures being used, it amazes me that this is a belief amoungst Chiristian folk.

I am always surprised at what some believe.

Thank you for your posts.

I will keep reading.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.

First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

What is being asserted is that Jesus was a man of His times. He lived as a Jew, since He was a Jew. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that Jesus got His teachings from the Pharisees, but rather, I am saying that Jesus went through the normal channels He would have had to have gone through like anyone else in the rabbinical community. He had disciples just like other Rabbis did He wore the tassels just like other Jewish men did. He alluded to the Talmud several times in His teachings, and was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

We have on record that He was at Festivals of Chanukhah, Passover and the Festival of Tabernacles. Jesus lived within a Jewish context. What is so hard to accept?

[Botz]

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.

First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

What is being asserted is that Jesus was a man of His times. He lived as a Jew, since He was a Jew. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that Jesus got His teachings from the Pharisees, but rather, I am saying that Jesus went through the normal channels He would have had to have gone through like anyone else in the rabbinical community. He had disciples just like other Rabbis did He wore the tassels just like other Jewish men did. He alluded to the Talmud several times in His teachings, and was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

We have on record that He was at Festivals of Chanukhah, Passover and the Festival of Tabernacles. Jesus lived within a Jewish context. What is so hard to accept?

I think Kross was referring to his initial statement regarding posts he had previously read on other threads, and then took it from there to discuss on this thread....

JESUS was called Rabi/Raboni by people. This means teacher.

In a couple fo posts I have seen people say that JESUS was a travelling teacher. That this was a position within the religeous community.

In essence, JESUS was licensed to preach by some man made religious order that gave HIM HIS authority. It is because of this authority that HE was allowed to preach in the temple

This seemed to be the foundation for the idea of HIM having a vocation as a traveling teacher.

I believe JESUS was not associated with any religeous order and did not have any religeous group behind HIM.

[kross]

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.

First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

What is being asserted is that Jesus was a man of His times. He lived as a Jew, since He was a Jew. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that Jesus got His teachings from the Pharisees, but rather, I am saying that Jesus went through the normal channels He would have had to have gone through like anyone else in the rabbinical community. He had disciples just like other Rabbis did He wore the tassels just like other Jewish men did. He alluded to the Talmud several times in His teachings, and was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

We have on record that He was at Festivals of Chanukhah, Passover and the Festival of Tabernacles. Jesus lived within a Jewish context. What is so hard to accept?

If HE was an "official " Rabbi, then doesn't that tie HIM to a religious order? Or am I missing something?

I know that JESUS lived under the law. What I do not believe is that Rabbi was an official earned title. In all that I have read in scripture, it was what the people called HIM. I see no recognetion for HIM as a "legitimate" member of any religious order.

It is interesting, but I think I will stick to my silly notion that HIS authority came from GOD and HIS position with the people.

After all, during HIS time on Earth, the temple was more a plce of politics. The priests, pharisees, and scribe were more afraid of the people then GOD.

Plus, I am absolutely sure that who HE studied under and where HE was licensed to preach would have been recorded in the scriptures.

[kross]

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.

First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

What is being asserted is that Jesus was a man of His times. He lived as a Jew, since He was a Jew. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that Jesus got His teachings from the Pharisees, but rather, I am saying that Jesus went through the normal channels He would have had to have gone through like anyone else in the rabbinical community. He had disciples just like other Rabbis did He wore the tassels just like other Jewish men did. He alluded to the Talmud several times in His teachings, and was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

We have on record that He was at Festivals of Chanukhah, Passover and the Festival of Tabernacles. Jesus lived within a Jewish context. What is so hard to accept?

Seeing so many people are reading this thread, I was affraid this wouldn't be seen if I did another edit.

The only place it refers to JESUS being of a priesthood in the scriptures is where HE is refered to an a priest in the order of Melchizadec.

[Guest shiloh357]

In essence, JESUS was licensed to preach by some man made religious order that gave HIM HIS authority. It is because of this authority that HE was allowed to preach in the temple

No, that is not what is being asserted.

Jesus simply submitted to the normal channels of operation that were in existence in His day. Jesus was not a rebel. The Bible teaches that we are to obey the laws of the land. Jesus did that. Jesus voluntarily condescended to the legal parameters in existence and operated within those boundaries. There were channels to go through in order to become a Rabbi, and Jesus went through the necessary steps to become a Rabbi.

Jesus as God could have simply marched into the Temple and said whatever He wanted to and no one could have stopped Him, but that was not the example He chose to leave us. Jesus never used His power to advance Himself or to gain anything for Himself. Jesus was able to live perfectly within framework of rabbinical community without necessarily derving His authority from them.