If God's will is to save all His people

[legoman]

No one can come to the father unless it is the will of the father. He chooses us, we don't choose him.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit

[Guest shiloh357]

despite the fact that there are many Christians who will ignor the 100+ scriptures that teach we are predestined for adoption and chosen before the foundations of the earth for salvation, it is still the truth.

Being predestined for adoption is not the same thing as being predestined for salvation.

Salvation does not equal "adoption." "Adoption according to Paul is the result of salvation and it does not occur until we receive our new, redeemed bodies. No one has been "adopted" yet.

Adoption is not something God predestines sinnners for. Adoption is what God has predesteined to happen AFTER salvation has taken place.

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

There is no way to twist the scriptures to deny this fact to those who read the Bible and believe what it says. There are those who twist the scriptures to convince themselves that they are the GOD of their salvation. They cannot, in their humanity, comprehend the ways of this truth. They refuse to aknowledge that GOD is GOD.

That is nothing but a emotional rant and has no basis in truth.

[legoman]

Possibly these scriptures are relevant:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

From this we can see Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and also names were (or not) written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Legoman

[kross]

despite the fact that there are many Christians who will ignor the 100+ scriptures that teach we are predestined for adoption and chosen before the foundations of the earth for salvation, it is still the truth.

Being predestined for adoption is not the same thing as being predestined for salvation.

Salvation does not equal "adoption." "Adoption according to Paul is the result of salvation and it does not occur until we receive our new, redeemed bodies. No one has been "adopted" yet.

Adoption is not something God predestines sinnners for. Adoption is what God has predesteined to happen AFTER salvation has taken place.

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

There is no way to twist the scriptures to deny this fact to those who read the Bible and believe what it says. There are those who twist the scriptures to convince themselves that they are the GOD of their salvation. They cannot, in their humanity, comprehend the ways of this truth. They refuse to aknowledge that GOD is GOD.

That is nothing but a emotional rant and has no basis in truth.

Once again we see you making that claim about adoption, and once again you are 100% wrong.

Paul clearly establishes that we are adopted if we cry out "ABBA FATHER" Romans 8:15 and he restates this fact in Romans 8:28-33. He also clearly tells us that we are chosen before the foundations of the earth and predestined to adoption in Eph 1:4-5

He also tells us that in Romans 9. In Corinthians we are called the chosen, the called, the elect all of which say it is GOD who did the calling, choosing, and election.

The wheat are always wheat. The tares are always tares.

[Guest shiloh357]

Once again we see you making that claim about adoption, and once again you are 100% wrong.

Paul clearly establishes that we are adopted if we cry out "ABBA FATHER"

No he does not. Here is what Paul says:

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Romans 8:15)

the "spirit" of adoption refers to confidence. It is the confidence we have that enables us to the cry out "Abba" Father. Paul did not say we are adopted IF we cry out Abba, Father. We have the promise and assurance of adoption. The assurance comes from the fact that we have earnest of the Holy Spirit who has sealed us until our final redemption. We have been given the spirit of adoption, but not fullness of it yet. We will experience adoption when we receive our redeemed bodies. For now we simply have the assurance of it.

Romans 8:15 and he restates this fact in Romans 8:28-33. He also clearly tells us that we are chosen before the foundations of the earth and predestined to adoption in Eph 1:4-5

Yes, but Paul defines WHAT adoption is in Rom. 8:23:

And not only so, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

No one at this point has been "adopted." Adoption is still future. This is what Eph. 1:4-5 says WE (Christians) have been predestined for. We are chosen IN HIM. We are not chosen OUT OF HIM.

Biblical predestination only pertains to service, not salvation. Predestination as it is used in the Bible, pertains to what God has predestined for Christians AFTER they get saved. God has predestined US all Christians to Adoption. He did not predestine unbelievers prior to salvation for adoption.

He also tells us that in Romans 9.

Yeah except Romans 9 is not about salvation. Romans 9 pertains God choosing whom He will choose to show His glory. It says nothing about who will or will not be saved.

In Corinthians we are called the chosen, the called, the elect all of which say it is GOD who did the calling, choosing, and election.

Yes, it does call us those things. The problem is that it is still referring to service not salvation. The same is true for election. None of are elected to salvation, but elected for service as a result of salvation.

The wheat are always wheat. The tares are always tares.

Except that God only plants wheat. So that anology doesn't apply here. If you can find a place where GOD is the one who plants both wheat and tares together so that He can harvest some and destroy others, then you might have a case. It is the enemy who sows the tares.

[kross]

Once again we see you making that claim about adoption, and once again you are 100% wrong.

Paul clearly establishes that we are adopted if we cry out "ABBA FATHER"

No he does not. Here is what Paul says:

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Romans 8:15)

the "spirit" of adoption refers to confidence. It is the confidence we have that enables us to the cry out "Abba" Father. Paul did not say we are adopted IF we cry out Abba, Father. We have the promise and assurance of adoption. The assurance comes from the fact that we have earnest of the Holy Spirit who has sealed us until our final redemption. We have been given the spirit of adoption, but not fullness of it yet. We will experience adoption when we receive our redeemed bodies. For now we simply have the assurance of it.

Romans 8:15 and he restates this fact in Romans 8:28-33. He also clearly tells us that we are chosen before the foundations of the earth and predestined to adoption in Eph 1:4-5

Yes, but Paul defines WHAT adoption is in Rom. 8:23:

And not only so, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

No one at this point has been "adopted." Adoption is still future. This is what Eph. 1:4-5 says WE (Christians) have been predestined for. We are chosen IN HIM. We are not chosen OUT OF HIM.

Biblical predestination only pertains to service, not salvation. Predestination as it is used in the Bible, pertains to what God has predestined for Christians AFTER they get saved. God has predestined US all Christians to Adoption. He did not predestine unbelievers prior to salvation for adoption.

He also tells us that in Romans 9.

Yeah except Romans 9 is not about salvation. Romans 9 pertains God choosing whom He will choose to show His glory. It says nothing about who will or will not be saved.

In Corinthians we are called the chosen, the called, the elect all of which say it is GOD who did the calling, choosing, and election.

Yes, it does call us those things. The problem is that it is still referring to service not salvation. The same is true for election. None of are elected to salvation, but elected for service as a result of salvation.

The wheat are always wheat. The tares are always tares.

Except that God only plants wheat. So that anology doesn't apply here. If you can find a place where GOD is the one who plants both wheat and tares together so that He can harvest some and destroy others, then you might have a case. It is the enemy who sows the tares.

I am not going to go back and forth on this. I know you feel you have this right and I will not reach you with anything I might write.

[larryt]

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

Never?

2Th 2:13

[larryt]

QUOTE

The Bible never mentions what God has predestined for sinners. It always talks about predestination in connection to what awaits believers.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Interesting word, "foreknew". It actually means foreloved. God foreloved some with unmerited favour. Some people read into it foresight.

No, proginṓskō simply means "foreknew." It does not carry the connotation of "foreloved." I think that is a meaning YOU are supplying to the passage.

Notice the order. Those he foreknew He predistened. It does not say He predestined those he foreknew. God knows who will be saved, and it is those he knows will be saved, that He predesitines to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is talking about what God has predestined for the ones He knows will be saved. Predestination is post-salvation.

John Gill

Ver. 29. For whom he did foreknow, &c.] The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

Matthew Henry

I. Whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. All that God designed for glory and happiness as the end he decreed to grace and holiness as the way. Not, whom he did foreknow to be holy those he predestinated to be so. The counsels and decrees of God do not truckle to the frail and fickle will of men; no, God

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

The Bible never mentions what God has predestined for sinners. It always talks about predestination in connection to what awaits believers.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Interesting word, "foreknew". It actually means foreloved. God foreloved some with unmerited favour. Some people read into it foresight.

No, proginṓskō simply means "foreknew." It does not carry the connotation of "foreloved." I think that is a meaning YOU are supplying to the passage.

Notice the order. Those he foreknew He predistened. It does not say He predestined those he foreknew. God knows who will be saved, and it is those he knows will be saved, that He predesitines to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is talking about what God has predestined for the ones He knows will be saved. Predestination is post-salvation.

John Gill

Ver. 29. For whom he did foreknow, &c.] The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

Matthew Henry

I. Whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. All that God designed for glory and happiness as the end he decreed to grace and holiness as the way. Not, whom he did foreknow to be holy those he predestinated to be so. The counsels and decrees of God do not truckle to the frail and fickle will of men; no, God

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 24 2008, 08:13 AM)

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

Never?

2Th 2:13