JESUS birth story

[nebula]

Shiloh - this means that Herod died not long after they arrived in Egypt.

[kross]

Part of that understanding is from the greek word that is translated "Child" which is more accurately toddler as apposed to infant. They showed up at a house where there was a toddler.

The dedication at the Temple is the problem, though. They had Jesus dedicated AFTER they returned from the flight from Egypt, which was AFTER the Wisemen appeared.

The Torah said that Jesus had to be presented at the Temple 30 days after he was born. Why would they have been two years and Jesus still not dedicated, AND why would they still be in Bethlehem two years AFTER He was born? Joseph was a tradesman and his job was back in Nazareth. It is doubtful they brought two years of wages with them.

As for the toddler reference. You need to remember that Koine Greek, like Hebrew, is a smaller language than English. This means that one word will have multiple usages. The same word depending on the context CAN mean toddler, but it is also used for newborn, infant, children of more advanced age as well. The same word is also used to refer to new Christians who are young in the faith.

So there is no hard and fast rule that says Jesus MUST be understood to be a "toddler" when the Wisemen appeard and further as I stated before, they did not count the years the same way we do today, which further damages the tradition that the wisemen did not arrive until two years AFTER Jesus birth.

You know what, I think you may be correct. I had seen the two different words used (three different words actullay) and put them in my brain as being used by the same writer to denote different ages. But they are used by different writers.

More study is now needed.

Thanks.

[kross]

maybe I missed this part, but where does the Bible say Jesus was dedicated AFTER they returned from the flight from Egypt?

Luke 2:39 says after they had accomplished the dedication at the temple they returned to Nazareth. Yet when the wisemen visisted them they were in Bethlehem.

Herod in Matthew 2:7,8 sent the wisemen to Bethelehem (not Nazareth) since He had been informed that the child was to be born there. He planned to kill the child, but was going to let the wisemen do the scouting work for him.

In Matthew 2:16, Herod, after realizing he had been scammed by the wisemen sent a company of his soldiers into Bethelehem (not Nazareth) to kill Jesus.

If Jesus was visted by the wisemen two years after His birth why would they still be in Bethlehem and not Nazareth? Matthew 2:1 tell us that they appeared in Jerusalem when Jesus was born, not two after He was born.

The wisemen visit Jesus in Bethlehem, they leave and fail to inform Herod, Herod sends His soldiers to Bethlehem to kill Jesus. The angel warns Josepth and they flee to Egypt. When Herod is dead they return to Israel, dedicate Jesus at the Temple, and return to their home in Nazareth. All of that takes place within 30 days.

Although, just because Herod sent them to Bethlehem does not mean they went to Bethlehem. They did follow the star after all, and not Herod. It could be that Herod would have heard about the babe born in the manger from someone in Bethlehem or would continue to look for children born in that time frame, and would therefore continue to search for JESUS. Indications from the story are that they were looking for the child even after killing all the babies in Bethlehem.

Matt 2:1 in the NKJV says they came after JESUS was born.

Also, verse 21 states that they did not return to Judea but went straight to Galilee.

I could have believed this post until I re-read the part about them traveling to Egypt and back in less than 30 days with a newborn and a mother who just gave birth.

As i stated, it calls for more research and prayer.

Actually, further revue reveals that Herod also ordered the children in the surrounding provinces to be killed as well which indicats that the wise men may not have gone to Bethlehem and the child may not have been there.

More study and prayer.

[sheya joie]

I don't understand where y'all are getting 33 days, or even 30 days, from the birth to the dedication at the Temple in Jerusalem. Here is the OT law:

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, 7 days, then the circumcision, then continuing on an additional 33 days - making a total of 40 days. And then the purification/dedication where the two birds would be offered (by poor people).

As for the chronology of when the wise men visited, Focus on Family did an 'Adventures in Odyssey' story once in which the wise men showed up directly after the dedication and visited the family at a (rented?) house. Joseph had the warning dream, and the family took off for Egypt, using the wise men's gifts to finance the journey.

Would that work?

[kross]

I don't understand where y'all are getting 33 days, or even 30 days, from the birth to the dedication at the Temple in Jerusalem. Here is the OT law:

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, 7 days, then the circumcision, then continuing on an additional 33 days - making a total of 40 days. And then the purification/dedication where the two birds would be offered (by poor people).

As for the chronology of when the wise men visited, Focus on Family did an 'Adventures in Odyssey' story once in which the wise men showed up directly after the dedication and visited the family at a (rented?) house. Joseph had the warning dream, and the family took off for Egypt, using the wise men's gifts to finance the journey.

Would that work?

My brain has been swimming through so many cenarios now. That one would work with the exception of the statement in Luke that they went to Galilee after the 40 days, not Egypt.

[kross]

Part of that understanding is from the greek word that is translated "Child" which is more accurately toddler as apposed to infant. They showed up at a house where there was a toddler.

The dedication at the Temple is the problem, though. They had Jesus dedicated AFTER they returned from the flight from Egypt, which was AFTER the Wisemen appeared.

The Torah said that Jesus had to be presented at the Temple 30 days after he was born. Why would they have been two years and Jesus still not dedicated, AND why would they still be in Bethlehem two years AFTER He was born? Joseph was a tradesman and his job was back in Nazareth. It is doubtful they brought two years of wages with them.

As for the toddler reference. You need to remember that Koine Greek, like Hebrew, is a smaller language than English. This means that one word will have multiple usages. The same word depending on the context CAN mean toddler, but it is also used for newborn, infant, children of more advanced age as well. The same word is also used to refer to new Christians who are young in the faith.

So there is no hard and fast rule that says Jesus MUST be understood to be a "toddler" when the Wisemen appeard and further as I stated before, they did not count the years the same way we do today, which further damages the tradition that the wisemen did not arrive until two years AFTER Jesus birth.

Where do you find that the wisemen came before CHRIST's dedication?

[kross]

So far, the simplest answer seems to be the best. The wisemen came to a house that was not in Bethlehem.

Yes, Herod told them to go to Bethlehem, but they followed the star.

This allows for the fulfillment of the laws of GOD, the immediate return to Nazareth, the flight into egypt and returning to Galilee without going to Jerusalem.

It seems to have no real holes in it.

What say thee?

[ColleenLovesMischief]

So far, the simplest answer seems to be the best. The wisemen came to a house that was not in Bethlehem.

Yes, Herod told them to go to Bethlehem, but they followed the star.

This allows for the fulfillment of the laws of GOD, the immediate return to Nazareth, the flight into egypt and returning to Galilee without going to Jerusalem.

It seems to have no real holes in it.

What say thee?

That is the direction I was leaning. After they had come out from Herod it mentions the star specifically.

[nebula]

So far, the simplest answer seems to be the best. The wisemen came to a house that was not in Bethlehem.

Yes, Herod told them to go to Bethlehem, but they followed the star.

This allows for the fulfillment of the laws of GOD, the immediate return to Nazareth, the flight into egypt and returning to Galilee without going to Jerusalem.

It seems to have no real holes in it.

What say thee?

Except that if Herod sent the troops to Bethlehem and they were ein Nazereth, why flee?

[ColleenLovesMischief]

So far, the simplest answer seems to be the best. The wisemen came to a house that was not in Bethlehem.

Yes, Herod told them to go to Bethlehem, but they followed the star.

This allows for the fulfillment of the laws of GOD, the immediate return to Nazareth, the flight into egypt and returning to Galilee without going to Jerusalem.

It seems to have no real holes in it.

What say thee?

Except that if Herod sent the troops to Bethlehem and they were ein Nazereth, why flee?

Ummmmm cause God said so?????