The real birth of Jesus

[EricH]

I have a suggestion. Rather than worry about the exact day of his birth, why not use this time of year to tell people about the reason he was born. Folks are more open to spiritual things at Christmas time, and with the economic situation they are asking more questions. When we stand before God, I don't think one of the first questions He will ask us will be what day did you think Jesus was born on?

[Massorite]

Hi Massorite.

I agree with Running Gators statement....

for like the 100th time, we do not use paganism to celebrate Christ, this is not only false, but it is a falsehood that you know to be such and you should stop spreading lies about your fellow Christians. As I said before, the fact that pagans might worship a tree does not make my Christmas tree a pagan object any more than me standing in a barn makes me a tractor. There is no pagan Paganism going on here, this is something you have made up, it seems, so that you can have something to look down on people for.

The fir tree is just a tree...a tree created by G-d....who saw that what He created was good!

If someone wants to paganize this tree and use it in some sort of satanic ritual..that is clearly wrong, and I would not be joining those festivities.

If it is simply a tradition at this time of year to cut down a fir tree and decorate it...completely devoid of any pagan context...then I do not have a problem...I am not involved in any sort of pagan worship or ritual, known or inadvertant....therfore I am not a participator by any stretch of the imagination in an occult practice...the only thing I can be accused of is celebrating Jesus' birthday on what was more likely the time of His conception, and having an enjoyable time with friends or family.

It is the same as eating meat offered to idols, which I think was mentioned before....meat in itself is not bad, I am content to eat it, but if I find out it is dedicated to some false god or is used in some occult ritual...I will not be eating it. The meat is not bad...it is what others have surrounded it with that is wrong....I will still eat the same type of meat, but I will remove myself from the context of the pagan ritual.

If somehow your conscience hurts when considering Christmas trees, and you believe you have unearthed suficient evidence to abhor their decorative usage, then thats fine...don't have one, but you must understand that other Believers are at liberty to do so with a clear conscience.

In love. Botz

Hello Botz

Jeremiah 10:1-6. I have had many conversations with many worthy members on these verses and most all of them want add the word "chisel" in place of the word "Axe". They also want to add the word "Idol" or speak as if the word tree is not a tree at all but rather a decorative poll that was carved from a tree with a chisel. But the bible doesn't use the word chisel and I find it very hard to follow that train of thought that says a person went out into the forest and cut a tree down with a chisel.

So did God forget what He was talking about? Did He mean something other then exactly what He wrote in His word? Did God loss control over His word or what He was writing?

When the Bible says that one (heathen/gentile) cuts a tree OUT OF THE FOREST the work of the hands of the workman, with the AXE. I am assuming that God wrote down in His word exactly what He intended for us to see and read. Is the workman spoken of here a lumber jack, a laborer, or some kind of artist?

The bible simply says that this workman (who ever he might be) is a man who is a heathen/gentile who goes out and cuts a tree from the forest and he uses an Axe to cut the tree down.

The bible doesn't say that this man is an artisan of some kind, the bible doesn't say that the Axe is a chisel, the bible doesn't say that this tree is some kind of carved idol. In these verses the word of God says that a man cuts down a tree from the forest with an Axe. Next the bible says that they (I am assuming that the bible is still talking about gentiles here) decorate it with silver and gold, ( the bible says nothing at all about anybody taking the time to cut the branches off of the tree and carve any thing on it), then the bible says that they fasten the tree with nails and hammers so that it is upright.

So why aren't these scriptures enough proof to show that people of God that when He say "Learn not the way of the heathen" He means exactly what He is saying. If you will notice the "way" is singular so the bible is not talking about several things it is talking about one thing only. The next few verses are action verses. We are not talking about a bunch of people who are sitting around. We are talking about a man who commits an action by going and cutting a tree from the forest. Decorating the tree with silver and gold is a statement that speaks of actions. Using nails and hammers on the tree to make it Mobile is a description of someone committing an act or someone who is in motion.

So the bible is talking about the very act of setting up and decorating a tree. Since the word customs is also used we know that the bible is speaking about the traditions/customs that require mobility or the actions of somebody.

So plainly put. Just like the bible is talking about. Every Christmas people both believers and non believers go out and buy a tree which has been cut out of the forest by someone which a chainsaw or at the least from a tree farm. Then the trees are taken home and decorated for a celebration

Since God is telling us not to learn the WAY of the heathen and goes on to give us an example of what it is the heathens/gentiles do. God is telling us not to do the example He gives us in Jeremiah 10:1-6. God is not talking about human sacrifice here in these verses. He is not talking about animal sacrifices here in these verses. He is talking about cutting a tree down, taking it home, and decorating it.

I am not now nor have I ever said that taking a tree home and decorating it will send you to hell nor have I said that doing such a thing is worshiping. What I am says is that according to these verses God disapproves even of the actions of taking a tree home and decorating it and that the insult to God is compounded because we are doing it in the name of His Son.

What I am saying is that once a believer has been informed that the actions they are taking is an insult to God and they keep on keepin on they will pay a price for living with unrepentant sin in their life and it will be a stiff price because they knew better.

If we don't add into the word of God words that are not there in the first place then what God is talking about is exactly what we do every year.

Be blessd my brother from another mother.

[Hunterpoet]

Hi Massorite.

I agree with Running Gators statement....

for like the 100th time, we do not use paganism to celebrate Christ, this is not only false, but it is a falsehood that you know to be such and you should stop spreading lies about your fellow Christians. As I said before, the fact that pagans might worship a tree does not make my Christmas tree a pagan object any more than me standing in a barn makes me a tractor. There is no pagan Paganism going on here, this is something you have made up, it seems, so that you can have something to look down on people for.

The fir tree is just a tree...a tree created by G-d....who saw that what He created was good!

If someone wants to paganize this tree and use it in some sort of satanic ritual..that is clearly wrong, and I would not be joining those festivities.

If it is simply a tradition at this time of year to cut down a fir tree and decorate it...completely devoid of any pagan context...then I do not have a problem...I am not involved in any sort of pagan worship or ritual, known or inadvertant....therfore I am not a participator by any stretch of the imagination in an occult practice...the only thing I can be accused of is celebrating Jesus' birthday on what was more likely the time of His conception, and having an enjoyable time with friends or family.

It is the same as eating meat offered to idols, which I think was mentioned before....meat in itself is not bad, I am content to eat it, but if I find out it is dedicated to some false god or is used in some occult ritual...I will not be eating it. The meat is not bad...it is what others have surrounded it with that is wrong....I will still eat the same type of meat, but I will remove myself from the context of the pagan ritual.

If somehow your conscience hurts when considering Christmas trees, and you believe you have unearthed suficient evidence to abhor their decorative usage, then thats fine...don't have one, but you must understand that other Believers are at liberty to do so with a clear conscience.

In love. Botz

Hello Botz

Jeremiah 10:1-6. I have had many conversations with many worthy members on these verses and most all of them want add the word "chisel" in place of the word "Axe". They also want to add the word "Idol" or speak as if the word tree is not a tree at all but rather a decorative poll that was carved from a tree with a chisel. But the bible doesn't use the word chisel and I find it very hard to follow that train of thought that says a person went out into the forest and cut a tree down with a chisel.

So did God forget what He was talking about? Did He mean something other then exactly what He wrote in His word? Did God loss control over His word or what He was writing?

When the Bible says that one (heathen/gentile) cuts a tree OUT OF THE FOREST the work of the hands of the workman, with the AXE. I am assuming that God wrote down in His word exactly what He intended for us to see and read. Is the workman spoken of here a lumber jack, a laborer, or some kind of artist?

The bible simply says that this workman (who ever he might be) is a man who is a heathen/gentile who goes out and cuts a tree from the forest and he uses an Axe to cut the tree down.

The bible doesn't say that this man is an artisan of some kind, the bible doesn't say that the Axe is a chisel, the bible doesn't say that this tree is some kind of carved idol. In these verses the word of God says that a man cuts down a tree from the forest with an Axe. Next the bible says that they (I am assuming that the bible is still talking about gentiles here) decorate it with silver and gold, ( the bible says nothing at all about anybody taking the time to cut the branches off of the tree and carve any thing on it), then the bible says that they fasten the tree with nails and hammers so that it is upright.

So why aren't these scriptures enough proof to show that people of God that when He say "Learn not the way of the heathen" He means exactly what He is saying. If you will notice the "way" is singular so the bible is not talking about several things it is talking about one thing only. The next few verses are action verses. We are not talking about a bunch of people who are sitting around. We are talking about a man who commits an action by going and cutting a tree from the forest. Decorating the tree with silver and gold is a statement that speaks of actions. Using nails and hammers on the tree to make it Mobile is a description of someone committing an act or someone who is in motion.

So the bible is talking about the very act of setting up and decorating a tree. Since the word customs is also used we know that the bible is speaking about the traditions/customs that require mobility or the actions of somebody.

So plainly put. Just like the bible is talking about. Every Christmas people both believers and non believers go out and buy a tree which has been cut out of the forest by someone which a chainsaw or at the least from a tree farm. Then the trees are taken home and decorated for a celebration

Since God is telling us not to learn the WAY of the heathen and goes on to give us an example of what it is the heathens/gentiles do. God is telling us not to do the example He gives us in Jeremiah 10:1-6. God is not talking about human sacrifice here in these verses. He is not talking about animal sacrifices here in these verses. He is talking about cutting a tree down, taking it home, and decorating it.

I am not now nor have I ever said that taking a tree home and decorating it will send you to hell nor have I said that doing such a thing is worshiping. What I am says is that according to these verses God disapproves even of the actions of taking a tree home and decorating it and that the insult to God is compounded because we are doing it in the name of His Son.

What I am saying is that once a believer has been informed that the actions they are taking is an insult to God and they keep on keepin on they will pay a price for living with unrepentant sin in their life and it will be a stiff price because they knew better.

If we don't add into the word of God words that are not there in the first place then what God is talking about is exactly what we do every year.

Be blessd my brother from another mother.

excellent post

[irishcowboy]

has anyone ever thought about the significance of the conifer, or evergreen trees???? (pine included)

New Birth, continual New Birth, or symbol of Everlasting Live, which is what Christ brought us. the tree never goes dormant or "dies out" but lives through out the year, no matter what the weather.... that is why during the ice storms they tend to take the worse damage, cause all the leaves are still intact on the tree.

do we worship the tree? or the Creator of the tree? what does the tree stand for?

let me ask this question.....

what has eyes and can not see?

what has ears and can not hear?

what has a mouth and can not speak?

an idol, that is what....

how many of these do we have in our pockets?

how many of these idols have we tagged with the word god???

how many people spend more time trying to get more of these idols then trying to use them for God's work?

did you know that if every one that attends church would "tithe" there would be no need for fund raisers for missions, building funds, or a need for social services or welfare?

so, what do we do with these idols?

why worry so much about a tree when we have greater concerns that need to be dealt with.

mike

[Massorite]

Hi Massorite.

I agree with Running Gators statement....

for like the 100th time, we do not use paganism to celebrate Christ, this is not only false, but it is a falsehood that you know to be such and you should stop spreading lies about your fellow Christians. As I said before, the fact that pagans might worship a tree does not make my Christmas tree a pagan object any more than me standing in a barn makes me a tractor. There is no pagan Paganism going on here, this is something you have made up, it seems, so that you can have something to look down on people for.

The fir tree is just a tree...a tree created by G-d....who saw that what He created was good!

If someone wants to paganize this tree and use it in some sort of satanic ritual..that is clearly wrong, and I would not be joining those festivities.

If it is simply a tradition at this time of year to cut down a fir tree and decorate it...completely devoid of any pagan context...then I do not have a problem...I am not involved in any sort of pagan worship or ritual, known or inadvertant....therfore I am not a participator by any stretch of the imagination in an occult practice...the only thing I can be accused of is celebrating Jesus' birthday on what was more likely the time of His conception, and having an enjoyable time with friends or family.

It is the same as eating meat offered to idols, which I think was mentioned before....meat in itself is not bad, I am content to eat it, but if I find out it is dedicated to some false god or is used in some occult ritual...I will not be eating it. The meat is not bad...it is what others have surrounded it with that is wrong....I will still eat the same type of meat, but I will remove myself from the context of the pagan ritual.

If somehow your conscience hurts when considering Christmas trees, and you believe you have unearthed suficient evidence to abhor their decorative usage, then thats fine...don't have one, but you must understand that other Believers are at liberty to do so with a clear conscience.

In love. Botz

Hello Botz

Jeremiah 10:1-6. I have had many conversations with many worthy members on these verses and most all of them want add the word "chisel" in place of the word "Axe". They also want to add the word "Idol" or speak as if the word tree is not a tree at all but rather a decorative poll that was carved from a tree with a chisel. But the bible doesn't use the word chisel and I find it very hard to follow that train of thought that says a person went out into the forest and cut a tree down with a chisel.

So did God forget what He was talking about? Did He mean something other then exactly what He wrote in His word? Did God loss control over His word or what He was writing?

When the Bible says that one (heathen/gentile) cuts a tree OUT OF THE FOREST the work of the hands of the workman, with the AXE. I am assuming that God wrote down in His word exactly what He intended for us to see and read. Is the workman spoken of here a lumber jack, a laborer, or some kind of artist?

The bible simply says that this workman (who ever he might be) is a man who is a heathen/gentile who goes out and cuts a tree from the forest and he uses an Axe to cut the tree down.

The bible doesn't say that this man is an artisan of some kind, the bible doesn't say that the Axe is a chisel, the bible doesn't say that this tree is some kind of carved idol. In these verses the word of God says that a man cuts down a tree from the forest with an Axe. Next the bible says that they (I am assuming that the bible is still talking about gentiles here) decorate it with silver and gold, ( the bible says nothing at all about anybody taking the time to cut the branches off of the tree and carve any thing on it), then the bible says that they fasten the tree with nails and hammers so that it is upright.

So why aren't these scriptures enough proof to show that people of God that when He say "Learn not the way of the heathen" He means exactly what He is saying. If you will notice the "way" is singular so the bible is not talking about several things it is talking about one thing only. The next few verses are action verses. We are not talking about a bunch of people who are sitting around. We are talking about a man who commits an action by going and cutting a tree from the forest. Decorating the tree with silver and gold is a statement that speaks of actions. Using nails and hammers on the tree to make it Mobile is a description of someone committing an act or someone who is in motion.

So the bible is talking about the very act of setting up and decorating a tree. Since the word customs is also used we know that the bible is speaking about the traditions/customs that require mobility or the actions of somebody.

So plainly put. Just like the bible is talking about. Every Christmas people both believers and non believers go out and buy a tree which has been cut out of the forest by someone which a chainsaw or at the least from a tree farm. Then the trees are taken home and decorated for a celebration

Since God is telling us not to learn the WAY of the heathen and goes on to give us an example of what it is the heathens/gentiles do. God is telling us not to do the example He gives us in Jeremiah 10:1-6. God is not talking about human sacrifice here in these verses. He is not talking about animal sacrifices here in these verses. He is talking about cutting a tree down, taking it home, and decorating it.

I am not now nor have I ever said that taking a tree home and decorating it will send you to hell nor have I said that doing such a thing is worshiping. What I am says is that according to these verses God disapproves even of the actions of taking a tree home and decorating it and that the insult to God is compounded because we are doing it in the name of His Son.

What I am saying is that once a believer has been informed that the actions they are taking is an insult to God and they keep on keepin on they will pay a price for living with unrepentant sin in their life and it will be a stiff price because they knew better.

If we don't add into the word of God words that are not there in the first place then what God is talking about is exactly what we do every year.

Be blessd my brother from another mother.

excellent post

Thank You my Brother

[Massorite]

Hello Botz

Jeremiah 10:1-6. I have had many conversations with many worthy members on these verses and most all of them want add the word "chisel" in place of the word "Axe". They also want to add the word "Idol" or speak as if the word tree is not a tree at all but rather a decorative poll that was carved from a tree with a chisel. But the bible doesn't use the word chisel and I find it very hard to follow that train of thought that says a person went out into the forest and cut a tree down with a chisel.

So did God forget what He was talking about? Did He mean something other then exactly what He wrote in His word? Did God loss control over His word or what He was writing?

When the Bible says that one (heathen/gentile) cuts a tree OUT OF THE FOREST the work of the hands of the workman, with the AXE. I am assuming that God wrote down in His word exactly what He intended for us to see and read. Is the workman spoken of here a lumber jack, a laborer, or some kind of artist?

The bible simply says that this workman (who ever he might be) is a man who is a heathen/gentile who goes out and cuts a tree from the forest and he uses an Axe to cut the tree down.

The bible doesn't say that this man is an artisan of some kind, the bible doesn't say that the Axe is a chisel, the bible doesn't say that this tree is some kind of carved idol. In these verses the word of God says that a man cuts down a tree from the forest with an Axe. Next the bible says that they (I am assuming that the bible is still talking about gentiles here) decorate it with silver and gold, ( the bible says nothing at all about anybody taking the time to cut the branches off of the tree and carve any thing on it), then the bible says that they fasten the tree with nails and hammers so that it is upright.

So why aren't these scriptures enough proof to show that people of God that when He say "Learn not the way of the heathen" He means exactly what He is saying. If you will notice the "way" is singular so the bible is not talking about several things it is talking about one thing only. The next few verses are action verses. We are not talking about a bunch of people who are sitting around. We are talking about a man who commits an action by going and cutting a tree from the forest. Decorating the tree with silver and gold is a statement that speaks of actions. Using nails and hammers on the tree to make it Mobile is a description of someone committing an act or someone who is in motion.

So the bible is talking about the very act of setting up and decorating a tree. Since the word customs is also used we know that the bible is speaking about the traditions/customs that require mobility or the actions of somebody.

So plainly put. Just like the bible is talking about. Every Christmas people both believers and non believers go out and buy a tree which has been cut out of the forest by someone which a chainsaw or at the least from a tree farm. Then the trees are taken home and decorated for a celebration

Since God is telling us not to learn the WAY of the heathen and goes on to give us an example of what it is the heathens/gentiles do. God is telling us not to do the example He gives us in Jeremiah 10:1-6. God is not talking about human sacrifice here in these verses. He is not talking about animal sacrifices here in these verses. He is talking about cutting a tree down, taking it home, and decorating it.

I am not now nor have I ever said that taking a tree home and decorating it will send you to hell nor have I said that doing such a thing is worshiping. What I am says is that according to these verses God disapproves even of the actions of taking a tree home and decorating it and that the insult to God is compounded because we are doing it in the name of His Son.

What I am saying is that once a believer has been informed that the actions they are taking is an insult to God and they keep on keepin on they will pay a price for living with unrepentant sin in their life and it will be a stiff price because they knew better.

If we don't add into the word of God words that are not there in the first place then what God is talking about is exactly what we do every year.

Be blessd my brother from another mother.

But the Word of God does not say axe, the King James translation says axe, but that is not the word that God used. the word that God used can be translated as axe, or tongs, or a cutting tool.

I also think that your veiw of this passage ignores vs 5...Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried

because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." This shows us what the passage is about, IDOLS.

but since you are so stuck on this whole cut with an axe thing, what about artifical christmas trees? or those cut with a chain saw? or

I have a JP Green, Sr Interlinear Bible which has a direct translation from the Hebrew Manuscripts. Here it what it says "Hear the word which Jehovah speaks to you, Ohouse of Isreal. Says Jehovah, You shall not be goaded to the way of the nations; and do not be terrified at the signs of the heavens; for the nations are terrified at them. For the ordinances of the people are vanity; for one cuts a tree out of the forest with the Axe, the work of the hands of the craftsman.

The Hebrew portion of this bible were first put into typeset in 1866 by the British and Foreign Bible Society which used the Hebrew Masoretic Text.

The Grant Jeffery Prophecy Bible uses the word Axe. My 1599 Geneva Bible uses the word Axe. It took Mr Strong 30 years of researching the Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts before he finished his Concordance and he says the word is Axe. My Companion Bible of 1611 uses the word Axe. My Oxford Bible uses the word Axe. All of my reference books, bible dictionaries say that the word in Jeremiah is Axe. My Thompson Chain Reference Study Bible uses the word Axe. The Layman's Parallel Bible uses the word AXE in three of its bible versions and neither the word chisel or Axe in the other version. My wifes Scolfield Bible uses the word Axe.

I have more bible versions but I think this is enough.

Which version is correct here? Is it an Axe or a chisel. Some bible versions say that an Axe was used to do intricate carvings into the tree that was cut down but an Axe is way to big to do that kind of carving. I am going to hang with all of the older versions of the bible. I believe that most of the newer versions of the bible are tainted to fit the desires of the men who revise them. If one were to do an in depth comparison of the old King James and some of the NIV,s from page one to the last page. they would find many Scripture changes that iether don't tell it all the same, leave words out and change words that actually change the meaning of the verse. Like the words "breach of promise" being changed to the word "opposition". The words "breach of promise' are speaking of taking back a promise that has been made. Like a breach of contract which implies an action. But the word opposition simply expresses dissatisfaction with no action. One is hardcore and the other is watered down. Not only was God dissatisfied with the Israelite people in the desert He took back the promise of the promised land from everybody (including Moses) except for Joshua, one other person I think Caleb and the children of the Israelites who were born in the desert. Which is a long way from simply being in opposition to what they did wrong.

So you are saying that all of these bibles and the people who translated them, concordances, lexicons and bible dictionaries are all wrong and are not the word of God. That for the past 4 or 5 thousand years the Hebrews and any body else who used the word Axe are and were wrong.

Sorry my friend I just can not allow myself to intertain that much doubt about the word of God. I believe that Mr. Strong and other people like him knew what they were. doing. I can believe that some of the newer versions are tainted because I have done a lot of compareing. I mean whop would have ever thought that we would have a more gender nutral bible or a gay bible.

As for an artificial tree. You would still be decorating it, putting presents under it, fastening it upright because it can't stand alone and you would still be setting it up for a celebration on a pagan holyday.

By the way. None of my bibles say any thing about any scarcrows in a melon patch. They say "They are upright as a palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be boene, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good"

You have just justified my belief. You have a bible that has word in it that are not in any of the bible versions that I have which tells me that your bible is one of those tainted bibles.

[Botz]

Hi Massorite...I did not have enough time to get back to you yesterday, but low and behold dear Cobalt 1959 has replied in much the same manner that I was going to attempt. We have to see what is actaully being talked about, and there is no historical evidence of people worshipping Christmas trees, but there is overwhelming evidence of men cutting down lumps of wood, and trying to fashion them into an image/idol, and then calling it their god.

I don't think Believers put up Christmas trees in their house for any spiritual reason...at least I don't...it is purely a 'fun' tradition...the gifts placed under it, are not offerings, they are presents to give to one another...just as the Magi gave gifts to Jesus perhaps.

So the fir-tree is not used for worship...it is not dedicated to some pagan entity..it does not represent some ancient fertility ritual...you say:-

I am not now nor have I ever said that taking a tree home and decorating it will send you to hell nor have I said that doing such a thing is worshiping. What I am says is that according to these verses God disapproves even of the actions of taking a tree home and decorating it and that the insult to God is compounded because we are doing it in the name of His Son.

What I am saying is that once a believer has been informed that the actions they are taking is an insult to God and they keep on keepin on they will pay a price for living with unrepentant sin in their life and it will be a stiff price because they knew better.

If we don't add into the word of God words that are not there in the first place then what God is talking about is exactly what we do every year.

What you are intimating is that according to your understanding of these particular verses, to have a christmas tree is in direct opposition and disobedience to G-ds word, and that by knowingly doing so we are heaping condemnation on ourselves as we have sinned and continue to sin.

I do not read the verses the same way you do, and from the sound of it, not many people do. My conscience is clear on this...I do not condemn you in your understanding...I think it is misplaced, and I think you are trying to implant your mis-guided idea into other Believers, although I believe you are sincere in why you do this....but we need to have some sort of accountability to one another and see that if it is possible we have got the wrong end of the stick, and to allow G-d to adjust our understanding slightly. This becomes especially apparent when we think we are right and everybody else is wrong....it is far more likely that it is the other way around. It is good to stick to our convictions....but sometimes in the light of better teaching and conviction of the Holy Ghost...we just have to accept that we were wrong. I believe you are wrong in this.

[PreciousRubi]

So let's move the date back a few months and decorate a turkey with lights and glitter!

so ok i admit i had to laugh ovedya

but really do you think Jesus minds if we dont get the exact date right?

that is my question to all of you- if we celebrate it as His birth and give Him the glory does the exact date matter?

lv yr sis in christ

manie

Would you mind if all your family and friends celebrated your birthday several months from the real date of your birth?

John 4:23

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

[PreciousRubi]

Would you mind if all your family and friends celebrated your birthday several months from the real date of your birth?

John 4:23

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

I would not care in the least, especially if, like in this case, they didn

[Hunterpoet]

Because this discussion is all about the christmas tree, I think it important to ad this information.

It concerns a christmas song, specifically " The Wassail Song".

Now I haevn't heard this song for some time, but do remember singing it as a young person, although I don't remember singing it in church.

The opening lyrics are...."here we come a wassailing among the leaves so green"....

So what is wassailing... " a salutation in drinking to someones ( or in this cause somethings) health, expression of goodwill at a festivity. The drink is commonly ale or wine spiced with roasted apples and sugar.

This is an old pagan ritual which is dated back to the 12th century and presumed to go back even further.

If you visit www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com, you can find an interesting read with reference to what Rev. Ian Bradley has written about this song and the origin of it's meaning.

The research that I did some years ago showed me that this wassailing was done to ward off evil spirits from the trees in the orchard, they would then toaast the tree or threaten it and give it cake...basically...tree worship.

Now they do mention G-d in the song, but I wonder what god they are referring to.

How does this fit in with the christmas tree, well, I think this song and it's origins, which are english, but also probably german( oh christmas tree) and european, demonstrate how this pagan ritual of toasting or worshiping trees was easily transferred to the celebration of the christmas, and if fact where the idea of having a tree during christmas came from.

All christians know, or should know, that the advosary will do anything to distract someone from hearing G-ds words and specifically about He Who is the Christ, Our Lord Jesus. I'm not aware of any verse in the bible that commands or suggests that erecting a tree in anyway way glorifies G-d or Our Lord and Savior. Quite the contrary, are we not suppose to be examples of how one can live in the world, but not be of this world.

I hear folks on these boards all year long chastizing and condeming things the Roman Catholic church and other denominations have incorperated into the church and worship of Our Lord, and yet once a year so passionately defend a tradition that is not supported by scripture and clearly has its roots in paganism.

Compromise, the early church compromised, the churches that came after did likewise, and what I see today are individuals coming together and compromising and justifying things which have no Christian or biblical basis whatsoever.

And to say that the bible doesn't condemn something to justify it's practice is a loophole that the advosary relishes.

I will ask these questions:

Why do you decorate the tree?

What do these decorations represent?

Where do you place the presents?

Why place them at the foot of the tree?

Are there any scriptures that tell us to do these things?

How less sincere would your worship and celebration be without a tree?

In my heart I know that the Lord does not want to be represented by anything other than His people. He does not want to be seen in a bulb, a tree, or anything like this. He wants the world to see Him in His people. He wants us to be different, His kind of different, and we are to do so in such a manner as to cause others to have want of it. A decorated tree will do little if anything to accomplish this.

I pray you all G-ds counsel on this matter.

Grace and Peace be with you always.