when do we go ?

[arrowfromgod]

i always thought that when i die i wouldnt go straight to heaven but would go some where and wait for the judgement day ya know the day the sea gives up the dead ppl rise up from the grave then i would be judged then go to heaven ,,, all at once ,,, and that no ppl are in heaven or hell yet ,,, but i hear other preachers say that this isnt the case not that it changes my mind on how i see it but where are they getting this from??? i cant see judgement day being everyday some one dies ,,, and i cant see going to heaven or hell then being brought out to be judged ,,,then going back to heaven or hell,,, can some one explain this to me ???

[kross]

i always thought that when i die i wouldnt go straight to heaven but would go some where and wait for the judgement day ya know the day the sea gives up the dead ppl rise up from the grave then i would be judged then go to heaven ,,, all at once ,,, and that no ppl are in heaven or hell yet ,,, but i hear other preachers say that this isnt the case not that it changes my mind on how i see it but where are they getting this from??? i cant see judgement day being everyday some one dies ,,, and i cant see going to heaven or hell then being brought out to be judged ,,,then going back to heaven or hell,,, can some one explain this to me ???

I have always believed that Christians go straight to HEaven (Absent from the body, present with the LORD). We are the adopted children of GOD and we will be with HIM waiting the adoption of our physical bodies.

Those who are not "dead in CHRIST" go into Hades or Sheol, which is not a really nice place waiting for the day of judgement. Rev 20:11-15 gives some understanding of that.

We who are in CHRIST, are not judged like those who are not. The time all of creation gives up there dead is the second judgement, or the judgement that leads to the second death, which we are not a part of.

"This day you will be with ME in paradise" Some people say means that from that day on this thief was destined for paradise, I think it means that when he dies, he is with JESUS.

[Rhonda Lou]

i always thought that when i die i wouldnt go straight to heaven but would go some where and wait for the judgement day ya know the day the sea gives up the dead ppl rise up from the grave then i would be judged then go to heaven ,,, all at once ,,, and that no ppl are in heaven or hell yet ,,, but i hear other preachers say that this isnt the case not that it changes my mind on how i see it but where are they getting this from??? i cant see judgement day being everyday some one dies ,,, and i cant see going to heaven or hell then being brought out to be judged ,,,then going back to heaven or hell,,, can some one explain this to me ???

Good question -- long answer. Luke 16 carries the story of Lazarus and the rich man. In that story, Jesus says that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, the rich man was across a chasm. This whole waiting area is called Sheol. It is/was a waiting place for the dead. Jesus told the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with me in paradise". Paradise or Abraham's bosom are the same thing: the good side of Sheol. When Mary saw Jesus on Resurrection day, He told her not to touch Him because He had not gone to "the Father" (John 20:16, paraphrased). He meant, He had not gone to heaven yet. However, later, they could touch Him. What happened? 1 Peter 3:18-19 says: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited int he days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved therough water." After speaking to Mary, He visited Sheol, in the Spirit, He spoke to those on the bad side of Sheol (called Hades), and proclaimed His victory to them (the Greek meaning of the word "preached" in 1 Peter 3:18-19). Then He led those in Paradise/Abraham's bosom to heaven. From that time on, any believer upon his or her death goes straight to heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 says, "So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Philippians 1:23-24 confirms this: "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is the better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needul for you." When believers die now, they go to heaven. The "paradise/Abraham's bosom" side of Sheol has been emptied. Nevertheless, the "Hades" side is still full of unbelievers. Jude 6:7 says, And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 1 Peter 3:18-19 spoke of "prisoners" in Hades. Revelation 20:13-14 says, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death AND HADES delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death AND HADES were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." It is at THIS time that unbelievers are taken out of Hades and thrown into the lake of burning sulphur (hell).

You asked about judgment. Romans 14:10, speaking to believers about the "gray areas of life", says, "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 says, "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." Again, this is speaking of believers, more specifically believers rewards. Believers are assured of heaven and rewarded for good works at the judgment seat OF CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 spells this out further: "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will tesh each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." Believer's WORKS are judged, not the believer. The wood, hay and straw WORKS will burn up, but not the believer. I believe these works are the ones done in our own power, rather than God's power. They are not evil "bad"; the root Greek word just implies "ineffective". Those who believe in the Rapture believe this takes place in heaven before the Second Coming. Those who do not believe in the Rapture say that it takes place when we die. Our place in heaven is assured, but we are judged by our works for reward.

The Great White Throne judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15 is the judgment of GOD, the FATHER, for unbelievers, who believed their works would save them: They say: "If we are 'good enough' God will let us into heaven". God points out that it is perfection which saves, and their works are stacked up to perfection. They all lose, and so death and Hades are cast into hell. Believers know we are not perfect either before or after salvation. Our FAITH is in the promise that JESUS WAS perfect and as believers we are "in HIM and cling to HIS perfection, is our salvation. However, we also know that being IN HIM, HE is also IN US, and by the power of the Holy Spirit is transforming us into His likeness -- meaning we are becoming more Christ-like. If we aren't, we question whether we are in Him. If we are -- HE is doing all the work in and through us. People see our good works and glorify GOD because they know, as we know, that HE is doing them in us. In doing "good" after salvation, we are not attempting to be saved, we are merely living out the fact that we WERE saved.

I'm sorry for the length of this, but I hope it answrs your question.

Rhonda

[EricH]

1. The souls of believers (those who have trusted in Jesus alone for their salvation) go immediately into God

[Guest]

Amen Brother Eric, Amen

See Dear James, When God Saves He Really Really Saves!

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Even Our Bodies!

[Dave123]

Good question -- long answer. Luke 16 carries the story of Lazarus and the rich man. In that story, Jesus says that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, the rich man was across a chasm. This whole waiting area is called Sheol. It is/was a waiting place for the dead. Jesus told the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with me in paradise". Paradise or Abraham's bosom are the same thing: the good side of Sheol. When Mary saw Jesus on Resurrection day, He told her not to touch Him because He had not gone to "the Father" (John 20:16, paraphrased). He meant, He had not gone to heaven yet. However, later, they could touch Him. What happened? 1 Peter 3:18-19 says: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited int he days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved therough water." After speaking to Mary, He visited Sheol, in the Spirit, He spoke to those on the bad side of Sheol (called Hades), and proclaimed His victory to them (the Greek meaning of the word "preached" in 1 Peter 3:18-19). Then He led those in Paradise/Abraham's bosom to heaven. From that time on, any believer upon his or her death goes straight to heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 says, "So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Philippians 1:23-24 confirms this: "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is the better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needul for you." When believers die now, they go to heaven. The "paradise/Abraham's bosom" side of Sheol has been emptied. Nevertheless, the "Hades" side is still full of unbelievers. Jude 6:7 says, And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 1 Peter 3:18-19 spoke of "prisoners" in Hades. Revelation 20:13-14 says, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death AND HADES delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death AND HADES were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." It is at THIS time that unbelievers are taken out of Hades and thrown into the lake of burning sulphur (hell).

You asked about judgment. Romans 14:10, speaking to believers about the "gray areas of life", says, "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 says, "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." Again, this is speaking of believers, more specifically believers rewards. Believers are assured of heaven and rewarded for good works at the judgment seat OF CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 spells this out further: "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will tesh each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." Believer's WORKS are judged, not the believer. The wood, hay and straw WORKS will burn up, but not the believer. I believe these works are the ones done in our own power, rather than God's power. They are not evil "bad"; the root Greek word just implies "ineffective". Those who believe in the Rapture believe this takes place in heaven before the Second Coming. Those who do not believe in the Rapture say that it takes place when we die. Our place in heaven is assured, but we are judged by our works for reward.

The Great White Throne judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15 is the judgment of GOD, the FATHER, for unbelievers, who believed their works would save them: They say: "If we are 'good enough' God will let us into heaven". God points out that it is perfection which saves, and their works are stacked up to perfection. They all lose, and so death and Hades are cast into hell. Believers know we are not perfect either before or after salvation. Our FAITH is in the promise that JESUS WAS perfect and as believers we are "in HIM and cling to HIS perfection, is our salvation. However, we also know that being IN HIM, HE is also IN US, and by the power of the Holy Spirit is transforming us into His likeness -- meaning we are becoming more Christ-like. If we aren't, we question whether we are in Him. If we are -- HE is doing all the work in and through us. People see our good works and glorify GOD because they know, as we know, that HE is doing them in us. In doing "good" after salvation, we are not attempting to be saved, we are merely living out the fact that we WERE saved.

I'm sorry for the length of this, but I hope it answrs your question.

Nice work Rhonda

I'm with you on most of what you wrote. I disagree on a few minor things. I believe Sheol and Hades are one in the same, but I agree that only the saved were kept in the paradise side. And also I'm not yet sure that Jesus only preached to those awaiting judement only, mostly because I have not seen enough evidence to convince me of it yet, but I'm always open to hear what anyone has to say in that matter. I'm kind of in limbo in that matter.

I'll PM you a link of some stuff that I wrote. It's from a different forum that I no longer post in. I don't really want to promote that forum, so that's why I'm using a PM.

Dave

Edited December 18, 2008 by Dave123

[LIVN4JC]

Amen Brother Eric, Amen

See Dear James, When God Saves He Really Really Saves!

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Even Our Bodies!

Blessings Brother. I couldn't have put it any better. Keep doing the Lord's work.

In His Hands,

MeMa

[irishcowboy]

We go to heaven or hell the very second we die. people leaving the grave are our immortal bodies being joined to our souls at the resurrection of the just. The white throne judgment is when the sinners are moved from hell to the lake of fire, this is the 2nd death.

and yet in Daniel, he is told by God that he will be asleep when this happens (he asks the Lord when these things will happen, the end time stuff and the Lord basiclly says not to worry....)

it is said that Absent from the body, present with the Lord....

some believe we lay in the grave until the day(s) of the resurection (rapture (first resurrection) for believers the judgment seat of the Lamb, and second resurrection for non-believers) The Great White Throne Judgment, and then we see the Lord or tossed into the lake of fire...

some believe that all rise at the same time and only sit through only the one judgment to find out if we have eternal life or eternal death.....

Thes. speaks about the dead in Christ coming out of the grave, then those alive and that remain will follow (in the twinkling of an eye).... this does not speak about those that are not believers, only the believers.

there are many many many scripture verses that can be pulled up for this subject....

one thing I do know is that we do not know everything there is...... we only have a small amount of information about what eternal life is like, very little information...

My grandfather was in both worlds at one time, Seeing Christ at the same time as being here, and the departed, very simular to how Stephen departed. My Great Grandmother was visited one morning by two men, telling her that she was going to go to a party, she was upset cause she did not have anything to wear, mom heard her calling out and checked up on her, she told mom that two men said she was suppose to go to a party today, but she did not have anything to wear, mom said that she need not worry, cause the men would be taking care of that. that evening, she went home.

what happened to Stephen, my Grandfather, my Great Grandmother and other friends that departed this world I have no idea the details..... I do know that I will be seeing them again through out all eternity, that I know. the details of when and how, i have no idea, i can only guess by using scripture.

mike

[Dave123]

"Death

We teach that physical death involves no loss of our immaterial consciousness (Revelation 6:9-11), that there is a separation of soul and body (James 2:26), that the soul of the redeemed passes immediately into the presence of Christ (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), and that, for the redeemed, such separation will continue until the Rapture (1 Thessalonian 4:13-17) which initiated the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6), when our soul and body will be reunited to be glorified forever with our Lord (1 Corinthians 15:35-44, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54; Philippians 3:21). Until that time, the souls of the redeemed in Christ remain in joyful fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8).

We teach the bodily resurrection of all men, the saved to eternal life (John 6:39; Romans 8:10-11, Romans 8:19-23;2 Corinthians 4:14), and the unsaved to judgement and everlasting punishment (Daniel 12:2; John 5:29; Revelation 20:13-15).

We teach that the souls of the unsaved at death are kept under punishment until the second resurrection (Luke 16:19-26; Revelation 20:13-15), when the soul and the resurrection body will be united (John 5:28-29). They shall then appear at the Great White Thrown judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and shall be cast into hell, the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41-46), cut off from the of God forever (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:41-46; 2 Thessalonian 1:7-9)."

This is from my MacArthur study Bible.

Dave

Edited December 20, 2008 by Dave123

[legoman]

Here are some additional relavent verses:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven