Did Jesus die for everyone?

[larryt]

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

Those that never heard were left in their unbelief. I do not believe they are saved. As I mentioned above that if God intends to save someone they will be saved. God will make sure that the Gospel gets to them and He will open their ears that they hear and will give them a new heart to believe.

LT

Allow me to ask it a different way. Do you believe that God can make himself know to someone who never heard any of the writings that we have read? Take the example of someone in the vast jungles of South America that have yet to see anyone outside of their tribe, have no idea about the world at all.

The operative word in your question is "can" God make Himself known. The answer is He can do anything He decides to do. The more important question is "Does" God make Himself known with regard to salvation apart from the Gospel? To that I answer NO.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God tells us exactly how He goes about saving someone. Rom.10:13-15.

Do you believe that God would touch the heart of one of these without sending anyone to them, but made Himself known through His creation?

I do not believe this at all. There are many accounts of people that said they were waiting for a messenger to bring them the truth and in fact someone came with the gospel message.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Knowing about God from the creation only condemns them because none seek after God.

I am not talking about works at all, but what is in the heart of men. In other words, someone who is seeking Him that this person believes is the creator.

Do you think that the heart of man is in any way good?

Yes, this is thinking outside the box ...

Maybe thinking inside the box is better.

Blessings,

LT

Thanks for your honesty, Larry. As you already know, I disagree, for we do not know everything God does nor do we know everyone He will give His grace to. Maybe we can continue this discussion in the next life. Until then, consider those who do not fall into the category of the "men who suppress the truth by their wickedness".

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

God Bless,

OneLight

We can disagree and it will not matter much. If we disagree with God it matters. I am really not sure what your point is in referencing Rom. 1:18.

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.

2. All the sins of some men, or

3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Very interesting questions to ponder.

LT

[Sgtazur]

I believe that Jesus died so that everyone could be saved, but only those who ask for His salvation will have their sins covered.

For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)

[Sgtazur]

I have a question for those who say, "God would not send a remote tribe in South Africa to Hell that's never heard of Jesus." I am not saying you're wrong, but while thinking about it in my head, I wondered: if they can be saved outside of the Gospel, then what reason do we have to preach it to them? What benefit is there, besides Salvation?

Remember what Jesus said: "Go and make disciples"

Edited January 10, 2009 by Sgtazur

[OneLight]

Consider this difference in my posts compared to all others. Most all others have talked about those who hear about Christ and His salvation. I am talking about those who never heard. We are talking about two different groups, so when you read and consider my words, realize that there is a difference between those who hear and those who have not had the opportunity to hear.

As I stated in the post where this all started, it is my personal belief and is not backed up with scripture. Since it is not, then just chew on it for awhile, if you wish, and just consider the possibility. Remember, scripture is given so we can know about God and His plan for us. In the given population of the world through out time, those who heard the word of God, compared to those who did not, until the printing press was developed, were a very small population, in comparison. Millions of people died without even the opportunity to hear. God, being a God of pure love, through His creation, made Himself known to the world ... even those who did not hear the word. Since God did make Himself known this way, was there a chance that someone understood His massage through creation and sought Him without even knowing His name or anything about Him except what creation pointed out?

We, those who have been brought up with the word, are very quick to say no because the word tells us that there is no other salvation except through Jesus, yet, we fail to think of the possibility that the Holy Spirit, who convicts the world of sin, can work in the hearts of those who have not heard. We also fail to realize just how large this number is, only because we can never know. Because there have been some who have considered this, missionaries have been sent to these obscure places bringing the word to them so that they will hear. But, those who have not considered, rarely spend time considering this or even thinking about this group of people. Ask yourself this question, "With everything that we have to deal with in our lives, how much time have we actually given thought to people who live in such remote, obscure places?" If we are honest, the vast majority of us will answer hardly ever, if at all.

When the Bible talks about the world, did they, at that time, even know there was a continent called America? Did they only know about the land mass that they lived on and the surrounding islands that were easily reached by their ships? Did the Apostles know about Cuba, for example, and the people living there, or Hawaii? I tend to believe not. It was impossible for them to know for no one had been able to travel there and report back to them. Remember, back then, they thought that the world was flat, except for those wise enough to heed to Gods word, which taking into consideration His word, were very few. Those who had ships would not even dare to travel past the horizon in fear of dying, so, since they did not know, they did not reach there. These are the people I am considering.

Again, there is no way of knowing the will of God for every single person that ever lived, whether or not they found grace in Gods eyes or not. We are not Him. We are just humans with finite minds, having enough trouble understand the simple things of God. God works in ways which we will never understand while still here in this world. I, for one, will not, in my heart and mind, condemn every single person that never had the chance to hear Gods word. I will leave this up to Him who judges all, but will consider that there is more to salvation that has not been told to man, for God gave us only what we, the reader and hearer of His word, needs to know. Also take into consideration that not everything that Jesus said and did was recorded, for the world would not be able to hold the books that could of been written. If this is the case about the ministry of Jesus, how much more is there to know about God and His plan for man?

I warn that nobody should make a doctrine based on this, and I say again, IT IS NOT SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE. It is just something that I have considered and have come to a conclusion that I know so little about God and how He is involved in His creation. Enough so to understand that I have been told to go and make disciples and leave the rest to Him.

For those who have been offended, or a stumbling block has been place in their way, I apologize whole heartedly. I was, and am, just giving a "what if".

God Bless.

[larryt]

Consider this difference in my posts compared to all others. Most all others have talked about those who hear about Christ and His salvation. I am talking about those who never heard. We are talking about two different groups, so when you read and consider my words, realize that there is a difference between those who hear and those who have not had the opportunity to hear.

As I stated in the post where this all started, it is my personal belief and is not backed up with scripture. Since it is not, then just chew on it for awhile, if you wish, and just consider the possibility. Remember, scripture is given so we can know about God and His plan for us. In the given population of the world through out time, those who heard the word of God, compared to those who did not, until the printing press was developed, were a very small population, in comparison. Millions of people died without even the opportunity to hear. God, being a God of pure love, through His creation, made Himself known to the world ... even those who did not hear the word. Since God did make Himself known this way, was there a chance that someone understood His massage through creation and sought Him without even knowing His name or anything about Him except what creation pointed out?

We, those who have been brought up with the word, are very quick to say no because the word tells us that there is no other salvation except through Jesus, yet, we fail to think of the possibility that the Holy Spirit, who convicts the world of sin, can work in the hearts of those who have not heard. We also fail to realize just how large this number is, only because we can never know. Because there have been some who have considered this, missionaries have been sent to these obscure places bringing the word to them so that they will hear. But, those who have not considered, rarely spend time considering this or even thinking about this group of people. Ask yourself this question, "With everything that we have to deal with in our lives, how much time have we actually given thought to people who live in such remote, obscure places?" If we are honest, the vast majority of us will answer hardly ever, if at all.

When the Bible talks about the world, did they, at that time, even know there was a continent called America? Did they only know about the land mass that they lived on and the surrounding islands that were easily reached by their ships? Did the Apostles know about Cuba, for example, and the people living there, or Hawaii? I tend to believe not. It was impossible for them to know for no one had been able to travel there and report back to them. Remember, back then, they thought that the world was flat, except for those wise enough to heed to Gods word, which taking into consideration His word, were very few. Those who had ships would not even dare to travel past the horizon in fear of dying, so, since they did not know, they did not reach there. These are the people I am considering.

Again, there is no way of knowing the will of God for every single person that ever lived, whether or not they found grace in Gods eyes or not. We are not Him. We are just humans with finite minds, having enough trouble understand the simple things of God. God works in ways which we will never understand while still here in this world. I, for one, will not, in my heart and mind, condemn every single person that never had the chance to hear Gods word. I will leave this up to Him who judges all, but will consider that there is more to salvation that has not been told to man, for God gave us only what we, the reader and hearer of His word, needs to know. Also take into consideration that not everything that Jesus said and did was recorded, for the world would not be able to hold the books that could of been written. If this is the case about the ministry of Jesus, how much more is there to know about God and His plan for man?

I warn that nobody should make a doctrine based on this, and I say again, IT IS NOT SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE. It is just something that I have considered and have come to a conclusion that I know so little about God and how He is involved in His creation. Enough so to understand that I have been told to go and make disciples and leave the rest to Him.

For those who have been offended, or a stumbling block has been place in their way, I apologize whole heartedly. I was, and am, just giving a "what if".

God Bless.

Here is the most telling statement you made.

As I stated in the post where this all started, it is my personal belief and is not backed up with scripture.

Paul tells us directly:

Eph. 2:11

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus paid the debt for ALL from Adam to the end.

[larryt]

Jesus paid the debt for ALL from Adam to the end.

Hi FA,

Did you read the quote I put from John Owen?

What do you make of it?

LT

[OneLight]

What we believe must be based on the Word of God or we risk being deceived just as Eve was deceived. When we bring in our own ideas/personal beliefs this is where it is headed.

LT

I have mentioned many times that this is a thought and I do believe that it is possible, but I have made no doctrine on it and warned others not to. It is in the same line as we are the only people God mentions in the Bible, but have you wondered why He made so many other universes? When you spend time contemplating an issue that is not covered in scripture, at some point, you are swayed one way or another.

Still, I will not close the door on the possibility that God has touched the hearts of others that never heard of Christ and His salvation before dying, through the Holy Spirit, to a point where they gave their heart to God as HE made Himself known to them. It is really simple and not heresy. Again, as Christians, we are geared to think only of scripture and with going forth and make disciples of the world. Thinking of God working outside of what He has made known to us is basically looked down upon and discouraged, and for good reason, but as a Christian, I realize that He does not tell me everything He does.

This is the last time I will comment on this on the boards, for I do not want to cause anyone any more opportunity to take what I have said and create a belief upon it. It is something personal I shared, and now wonder if it was wise to do so. Think to yourself of questions you have for God that are not covered in scripture, and if you are honest with yourself, you may find that you have taken a slight stance on them. This is the case here for me.

God Bless,

OneLight

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus paid the debt for ALL from Adam to the end.

Hi FA,

Did you read the quote I put from John Owen?

What do you make of it?

LT

Where is it, Larry? Sorry, I am a latecomer to this thread...

[larryt]

Jesus paid the debt for ALL from Adam to the end.

Hi FA,

Did you read the quote I put from John Owen?

What do you make of it?

LT

Where is it, Larry? Sorry, I am a latecomer to this thread...

Post #77 page 8 bottom. If you read the posts in the thread then we all don't have to be redundant.

LT