How is it...?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Let's not forget that the Tree is not necessarily an evil thing, it was the intent of the hearts of those who partook of the Tree that is the problem. It would appear that some on the opposite side of this discussion seem to think that God created an instrument of evil in the Tree.

Peace,

Dave

[kross]

"People do not create themselves. " kross

no one is arguing that people create themselves. we are however debating your concept that God creates/ wills sin.

Both the greek and the proper english of Romans 9:22 establish the vessels of wrath are "Fitted" for destruction. The use of the word "Fitted" and not "fit" indicates that they were made for this purpose. The original greek backs this up.

Shiloh says it is because of what they did, they fitted themselves. Thus the reply, "People to not create themselves"

[kross]

Grace to you,

Let's not forget that the Tree is not necessarily an evil thing, it was the intent of the hearts of those who partook of the Tree that is the problem. It would appear that some on the opposite side of this discussion seem to think that God created an instrument of evil in the Tree.

Peace,

Dave

It is a valuable point that it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thus the means to attain knowledge of evil was provided by GOD. Plus, the point is aptly made that the knowledge of evil was and is with GOD eternally. So, from this knowledge HE can make something like Satan without sinning or having sin in HIMSELF.

[legoman]

I got heated and over wrote on my last post, so I deleted it. I do not like it when it seams to me that someone is speaking ill of God, it makes my very upset. Sorry.

God cannot sin. If you want to charge others with sin, charge humans, but to place a blot on your maker is the height of ignorance.

I don't think those on the "God creates evil" side are "speaking ill of God".

Try looking at it from this perspective:

God does not sin. God hates sin. I don't think anyone would argue with this.

God has a knowledge of good and evil. This does not mean God is evil, but he has knowledge of it. God is the ultimate in goodness. Again I don't think anyone would argue with this.

God creates man in his image. In fact, God is still making man in his image. In order to show man what good is, evil is necessary, so God sets up the circumstances of this world so that evil exists. One cannot know what "good" is unless you also know what "evil" is.

Does God cause man to sin directly? No. Sin comes from the heart. Man's pride and lust causes him to sin.

Example: you lust after a pretty girl that walks by. You just sinned. Did God make you lust after her? No - you did it yourself.

BUT... who designed man to be so spiritually weak so that he would give into his lusts? God did!

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We sin because of our lusts and because we are spiritually weak. God designed us that way (Romans 8:20). But it is only temporary and God will deliver us from that bondage eventually (Romans 8:21).

Does God not send good & evil?:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Who was it that created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then made it desirable to Adam & Eve, and placed it right where they would see it? God of course. However, again God did not make them sin, but he knew they would. He knew Satan would tempt Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and it was all His plan from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). If God did not want Adam & Eve to sin, he would have stopped it:

- he wouldn't have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden (why even bother to create it)

- he wouldn't have allowed Satan anywhere near Adam & Eve

- in fact he would have got rid of Satan long ago

God is giving us an experience of evil so that we will learn humility & righteousness (Ecc 1:13).

Hopefully that gives some more perspective from the other side.

Cheers,

Legoman

I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate your efforts, but your post is a prime example of taking what is said and not HEARING what is said.

You wrote...

Does God not send good & evil?:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job was using the term "evil" to mean something that a person hates to have happen to them, NOT referring to sin, wickedness, nor Satanic things. To Job the deaths of his children was no doubt an evil thing, something he hated, but he was not charging God with sin, and he was very careful not to speak foolishly concerning God.

OK... I find it interesting that you talk about "not HEARING", and then you go onto say that Job was not charging God with sin, seemingly implying that I am charging God with sin. Maybe your weren't implying that but that is what it sounds like. If you read my post I said very clearly from the top that God does not sin.

With respect to Job's situation, the evil that happened to Job was done by Satan's influence. But ultimately it came down to God allowing/permitting Satan to do it for God's purpose. If God didn't want Satan to do it, it wouldn't have happened. God is sovereign over Satan. God doesn't have to give in to anyone.

But anyway, read the rest of my post. You only addressed one small portion. Clearly God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and made it desirable to Adam & Eve (Gen 3:6). Clearly God subjected his creation to vanity and bondage of corruption (Romans 8:20-21).

God sees the end and the beginning, He knows all things, all that will ever be, however, He can't be charged with a fault of any kind, He is perfect, and all that He says or does is right.

God not only sees the end and the beginning, he declares it and brings it to pass (Isaiah 46:10-11).

Yes I 100% agree that God is perfect and without fault.

Perhaps here is the misconception:

If God created evil, that would be a fault. NOT TRUE. God creates evil for a very good purpose. A perfect purpose. To show us (humanity) what good is. Eventually we will learn and then we will be free from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21). This won't happen until we are free of the flesh and are raised with incorruptible spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:50-55) Corruption must put on incorruption and mortality must put in immortality.

Cheers,

Legoman

I didn't mean to imply that you charged God with sin, and in fact I did read your entire post, and I did indeed only respond to a part of it, just as you only responded to parts of mine, I don't see a problem there?

As to God being perfect and without fault, you agree with me 100%. I don't see a problem there.

As to Job, he did not charge God with sin nor speak foolishly with his lips. I don't see a problem there.

In that all things were made by Him, obviously the tree was made by Him, as was Adam and Eve. Everything that exists was made by Him.

I am not implying that you anything, you are not the subject of this thread, and it is not my intention to make you the subject of this thread. If you read some of the posts in this thread, you might get the opinion that God was being charged with a fault, certainly that was what troubled me (not that I read anything by you that charged Him with a fault), and though I responded heatedly initially, I withdrew it, but I still maintain that charging God with a fault is the height of foolishness.

Ok, no problem

I agree this thread was getting a bit heated with one side vigorously arguing that God must be 100% sovereign and in control of all things and the other side arguing that God cannot be charged with sin. And I think those two views can coexist.

I'm just trying to point out (although perhaps unsuccessfully) that it can be God's ultimate sovereign will that sin exist, at least for a season. And this does not make God a sinner - because God is all powerful and has the power to correct anything he wishes.

Cheers,

Legoman

[kross]

"I am in no way attributing sin to God, but on the other hand God designed EVERYTHING" larryt

hmmmm just so i understand you are you saying that God designed sin?

I seem to be the only one who will state it plainly. Thus I am wrong and the majority is right, but;

Just for the record, in the beginning GOD was the ONLY ONE with the knowledge of GOD and EVIL. Yet, that knowledge was passed on. You wish to state that GOD made a mistake and let that knowledge slip? You are welcome to that idea.

But my GOD doesn't make mistakes. HE imparts knowledge as HE sees fit in the ways HE sees fit.

GOD put all the players in the game in order to allow the knowledge of god and evil to enter the world. With everything in place the way it was, there was no other outcome possible. Every player acted in accord with the nature given to them.

Does this mean that GOD has done wrong or has sinned in any way? No. As you and many others have pointed out, GOD allowing people to make their own choices and choose to sin is not sin against GOD.

For GOD to send an evil spirit to Saul, or a lying spirit to the prophets of Ahab is not to say GOD has sinned. To say so would be false. To say that GOD is sovereign in HIS control of evil is undeniable, for even the demons answer to HIM.

Now, for the record, I have never stated that GOD caused anyone to sin. I have stated that HE sent the spirits that caused people to sin. Thus, this sin was in HIS plans.

Still, it is THE LORD HIMSELF who hardened the heart of Pharoah that he would not let the people go. Did Pharoah sin in not letting the people go? What sin would that be? But GOD did raise up Pharoah for the purpose of cutting him off. And is justified in so doing.

Does GOD sin? No. Is there sin in GOD? No. Does GOD use sin to accomplish HIS purposes? ABSOLUTELY! If not shown anywhere else, it is shown in HIS use of the lies of the false prophets of Ahab which GOD intentionally used for his destruction as part of a plan concieved in heaven.

[RebekahDavid]

once again kross do NOT put words in my mouth! thank you

[RebekahDavid]

" You wish to state that GOD made a mistake and let that knowledge slip? You are welcome to that idea." kross

i have NEVER stated this and it is offensive for you to put words in my mouth by saying that i did please cease immediately!

[RebekahDavid]

BUT... who designed man to be so spiritually weak so that he would give into his lusts? God did!

Oh No!

Even "The Devil Made Me Do It"

Is A Better Lie Than "See God Made Me So Bad! See, See"

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Book Of Beginnings

It WAS Good

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31

And Along Came That Lier

..... And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said.....

Genesis 3:1

Who Was Himself Created Perfect

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:15

And He Tempted Mom But Pop Went Along With it

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it......

Genesis 3:17

And So All Mankind Was Born Dead In Their Sin

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:13

Until The Blood Of The Lamb Of God

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:5

Birthed All Those Who Will

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:7

Believe On His Name

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:12

Do You Believe

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

Jesus Is LORD?

I ALWAYS love reading your posts! Thank you for your ministry here, so often you refresh my spirit and encourage me in Jesus!

me too Joe you are such a blessing!

[legoman]

I got heated and over wrote on my last post, so I deleted it. I do not like it when it seams to me that someone is speaking ill of God, it makes my very upset. Sorry.

God cannot sin. If you want to charge others with sin, charge humans, but to place a blot on your maker is the height of ignorance.

I don't think those on the "God creates evil" side are "speaking ill of God".

Try looking at it from this perspective:

God does not sin. God hates sin. I don't think anyone would argue with this.

God has a knowledge of good and evil. This does not mean God is evil, but he has knowledge of it. God is the ultimate in goodness. Again I don't think anyone would argue with this.

God creates man in his image. In fact, God is still making man in his image. In order to show man what good is, evil is necessary, so God sets up the circumstances of this world so that evil exists. One cannot know what "good" is unless you also know what "evil" is.

Does God cause man to sin directly? No. Sin comes from the heart. Man's pride and lust causes him to sin.

Example: you lust after a pretty girl that walks by. You just sinned. Did God make you lust after her? No - you did it yourself.

BUT... who designed man to be so spiritually weak so that he would give into his lusts? God did!

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We sin because of our lusts and because we are spiritually weak. God designed us that way (Romans 8:20). But it is only temporary and God will deliver us from that bondage eventually (Romans 8:21).

Does God not send good & evil?:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Who was it that created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then made it desirable to Adam & Eve, and placed it right where they would see it? God of course. However, again God did not make them sin, but he knew they would. He knew Satan would tempt Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and it was all His plan from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). If God did not want Adam & Eve to sin, he would have stopped it:

- he wouldn't have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden (why even bother to create it)

- he wouldn't have allowed Satan anywhere near Adam & Eve

- in fact he would have got rid of Satan long ago

God is giving us an experience of evil so that we will learn humility & righteousness (Ecc 1:13).

Hopefully that gives some more perspective from the other side.

Cheers,

Legoman

I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate your efforts, but your post is a prime example of taking what is said and not HEARING what is said.

You wrote...

Does God not send good & evil?:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job was using the term "evil" to mean something that a person hates to have happen to them, NOT referring to sin, wickedness, nor Satanic things. To Job the deaths of his children was no doubt an evil thing, something he hated, but he was not charging God with sin, and he was very careful not to speak foolishly concerning God.

OK... I find it interesting that you talk about "not HEARING", and then you go onto say that Job was not charging God with sin, seemingly implying that I am charging God with sin. Maybe your weren't implying that but that is what it sounds like. If you read my post I said very clearly from the top that God does not sin.

With respect to Job's situation, the evil that happened to Job was done by Satan's influence. But ultimately it came down to God allowing/permitting Satan to do it for God's purpose. If God didn't want Satan to do it, it wouldn't have happened. God is sovereign over Satan. God doesn't have to give in to anyone.

But anyway, read the rest of my post. You only addressed one small portion. Clearly God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and made it desirable to Adam & Eve (Gen 3:6). Clearly God subjected his creation to vanity and bondage of corruption (Romans 8:20-21).

God sees the end and the beginning, He knows all things, all that will ever be, however, He can't be charged with a fault of any kind, He is perfect, and all that He says or does is right.

God not only sees the end and the beginning, he declares it and brings it to pass (Isaiah 46:10-11).

Yes I 100% agree that God is perfect and without fault.

Perhaps here is the misconception:

If God created evil, that would be a fault. NOT TRUE. God creates evil for a very good purpose. A perfect purpose. To show us (humanity) what good is. Eventually we will learn and then we will be free from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21). This won't happen until we are free of the flesh and are raised with incorruptible spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:50-55) Corruption must put on incorruption and mortality must put in immortality.

Cheers,

Legoman

Keep in mind that even the angels are watching what is happening in this created world. It is all designed to demonstrate the Glory of God. No one can doubt that there is evil in this world. God created this world and allowed evil to enter. And it didn't catch God by surprise. I believe He even planned for its entrance. God hates sin and as was put so bluntly, He hates what man does to man throughout history. The rapes, murders, human sacrifices. None of it is condoned. On the other hand it is in the world and God did make the world.(don't draw wrong conclusions from what I just said) Nothing happens that is not under God's complete control. All the rapes, murders, wars, etc. will only go as far as God allows them, and He will allow them as far as it pleases Him.

LT

Yeah, I get what you are saying Larry. Here is a scripture that summarizes (I think) what you said:

Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

God frames evil.

What does that mean? Well he allows evil, perhaps even causes/creates evil, but he doesn't let the evil out of his control. It is framed within the bounds and purposes that God will use it for.

If God did not frame evil, we would be in a much worse world than we are in now. Yet God still allows the evil to exist (within bounds) for his purposes - so that we would learn goodness.

I agree it is all for God's glory - but there is more to it than that - God is creating us in his image and giving us an experience of evil:

Eccl 1:13 (KJV) And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Its a bit hard to see in the KJV translation - look at the Concordant old testament translation:

Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

No matter how you look at that verse, you have to agree that God has made this world a tough place to live, and there is evil in it - but He has done it for a reason: we will learn goodness and will be humbled.

Cheers,

Legoman

[RebekahDavid]

allowing and causing are two very different things and i think that should be the jist of this debate

since we know that:

Passage 1 John 1:5:

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.