Legalism and the Church

[Guest man]

Matthew 15

7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8

[Smalcald]

I think with the exception of some small sects, legalism is not a problem at all in modern Churches.

There is nothing wrong with rules to live by, we all need them we all in fact deep down want boundaries on our lives, we want to please God, if the Church is not going to tell us how to please God, really what good is it?

Is it legalistic to tell Christians that they should follow the Ten Commandments? When we intentionally break the commandments we are saying with our actions that we hate God (emphasis on intentionally). So when we are in this condition we must seek repentance and we will receive continual forgiveness, the Church must be instrumental in guiding us to do this to helping us to see our sin and realize our true condition. I don't think that is legalism or is it?

I always though legalism was focusing on the outward and not looking at the heart, and not focusing on what the bible says about how we are to live and please God, but focusing on extra-biblical conditions and rules.

[Yonatan]

"......this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity...."

Well, are you saying that my contribution should 'strictly speaking' not be posted here?

If so, please feel free to delete it.

Yonatan

No, that is not the case, but it did concern me that the thread may be hi-jacked into a discussion of the many types of legalism. Accept my apology for making such a harsh statement without explanation.

[Yonatan]

One Light > I most certainly accept your apology and I ask you to accept mine for being 'quick to judge' and to react oversensitively without thinking more deeply where you were coming from.

As far as legalism in the Church goes, it has - as we both know - been a problem from the time Paul was writing his epostles about the very same thing we are talking about 2,000 years later.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that we are saved by faith alone and not works. I must also be truthful and say that I have been a practising born-again Christians for over 30 years and, IN THE BEGINNING, I went through many years - much pain and many lessons from God before I finally God to where Saint Paul got to in a flash on the road to Damascus.

I was a real, sanctimonious pain in the b***t Christian for years before I got free from trying to save myself by works. I also believe that there are millions of my fellow Christians in the same stage as I was, and millions of others who have one foot in Heaven already. In short, we are all at different stages of consciousness, according to God's grace and mercy, in our understanding of Christ.

We ALL therefore - especially me (just like Saint Paul said when he said he was the worst of all sinners) - make a sober but hopeful discernments about our own situations and NEVER point fingers at other Christians. We are all where we are by God's grace alone.

Personally, I thank God for that! It means we can all be friends and tolerant of each other - tolerant, but also guiding and helpful to whom we can be, and prepared to listen to others, too.

Well, that's a sort of 'ideal world' view I know; but it is better than sitting, like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress in the dungeon of despair!

My brother in Christ (or sister?) - I salute you.

Yonatan

[Fraught]

relating to what backontrack has said, jesus has said that greater things will we do AND that "greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world".

it is obvious to me that if we REALLY believed that, we would be overcoming the evils we encounter, such as disease, for one example.

why take the world as it is for granted, that things are the way they are and nothing we can do about it? maybe it's next to impossible to overcome the teachings of decades that we all received for our worldview but we can at least strive for it if we take Jesus at His Word.

[OneLight]

One Light > I most certainly accept your apology and I ask you to accept mine for being 'quick to judge' and to react oversensitively without thinking more deeply where you were coming from.

As far as legalism in the Church goes, it has - as we both know - been a problem from the time Paul was writing his epostles about the very same thing we are talking about 2,000 years later.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that we are saved by faith alone and not works. I must also be truthful and say that I have been a practising born-again Christians for over 30 years and, IN THE BEGINNING, I went through many years - much pain and many lessons from God before I finally God to where Saint Paul got to in a flash on the road to Damascus.

I was a real, sanctimonious pain in the b***t Christian for years before I got free from trying to save myself by works. I also believe that there are millions of my fellow Christians in the same stage as I was, and millions of others who have one foot in Heaven already. In short, we are all at different stages of consciousness, according to God's grace and mercy, in our understanding of Christ.

We ALL therefore - especially me (just like Saint Paul said when he said he was the worst of all sinners) - make a sober but hopeful discernments about our own situations and NEVER point fingers at other Christians. We are all where we are by God's grace alone.

Personally, I thank God for that! It means we can all be friends and tolerant of each other - tolerant, but also guiding and helpful to whom we can be, and prepared to listen to others, too.

Well, that's a sort of 'ideal world' view I know; but it is better than sitting, like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress in the dungeon of despair!

My brother in Christ (or sister?) - I salute you.

Yonatan

Welcome and God Bless, Yonatan! Thank you and yes, apology accepted. It is not easy to always remember that what I write may not be what you read!

Thank you for sharing about yourself. It is nice to know others who had a hard time following the Lord as He wanted to be followed!

Your Brother In Christ,

Alan

[Annette443pink]

I mean, there are so many things that are so much more important that we could be focusing on, but instead the church is often just looking for the correct behavior from it's members.

Oh my...what is this tragedy in which Churches expect Godly behavior from its members? I didn't realize legalism had reached such monstrous expectations...

Isn't it just as legalistic to try and force someone into the view of being accepting of other people's shortcomings? Isn't it just as legalistic to try and force people into a ministry better than what Jesus and the disciples had. Isn't it just as legalistic to judge someone for not believing in your belief that we are somehow moving into the "final chapter" and should be healing, prophecying, etc?

You can't accuse the church of being overly legalistic...and then start complaining that the church is in peril because they don't follow your rules..lol.

I believe in trying to be Holy. I believe in following God. I don't believe in unloving church members condemning each other. It seems that some people in churches make their sole purpose as a christian to watch others with a microscope and find a way to convict and hang them. They don't do it in love. I've seen most people not obviously caught up in great big obvious ugly sins, yet someone will find a way to tear people down and stomp on them if they are already down. These very same people who are pointing out the faults of others have got their own. They just aren't easy to see. What do they do when they are alone? I don't know, but God does. I don't recall laying down any rules. Just ponting out legalism and lack of love. Jesus Christ wasn't constantly reprimanding when he was on this Earth and it was typically the LEGALISTIC that he reprimanded. Thanks for being such a smart alleck. Another example of the great love of the church.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Annette443pink

[Annette443pink]

I agree so much with the original post. We are so, so busy banging each other and others over the head with the Bible and stabbing each other in the back with the "Sword". It is so pititful, so wrong. We have no idea what love is, what grace is, what mercy is. It makes me sad, mad, discouraged. I mean, there are so many things that are so much more important that we could be focusing on, but instead the church is often just looking for the correct behavior from it's members. Behavior that is much what the Pharisees and Sadduccees would have expected. Not bothering to care about the circumstances and needs of their own members, let alone the needs of the lost. The love of the church tends to be extremely conditional. It's sickening. I have been so discouraged that I've said that it's a good thing that I have a husband and children or I think I'd just walk completely away from tge organized church. I've got a whole lot of stress in my life and the church shouldn't be an added stress. The church seems to think that the Holy Spirit is incapable of convicting a person of their sin. Most of the time I imagine He is already at work and people sticking their legalistic noses into it tends to hinder His work.

Here's ALL of what was said. Jesus Christ was beaten and died for sin. How do we think we're going to be sinless? I mean, why did he bother if we could? I don't know. Some things are only understood through experience. There are dead children, diseased people, prisoners who are sons, dads, mothers; soldiers at war, divorce, hunger, abortion, depression...............so much more to focus on. The Holy Spirit is capable of convicting of sins. A close Christian friend may discuss your sin in the right way.... Why would someone who is full of sin dare set foot in this perfect, sinless church? This church that hasn't known of anyone sinning in forever? Think about it. Again, some things can't be taught or understood without experience.