Ham and Canaan

[givennewname]

Gen. 9:24 :"When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,"....

"There are some Scholars who believe that either Ham or Canaan, and more likely Canaan, committed an act of homosexuality on Noah; while there is no concrete proof of such, there is definitely some indication in that direction." The Expositor's Study Bible/KJV pg 19.

Unlikely explaination as the Bible does not record Cannaan as being presnt in that episode yet he was cursed instead of Ham. Noah placed a curse on Canaan as a act of prophecy as that line of Ham became the evil line that God must remove prioe to the children of Isreal possessing the land.

Blessings givennewname. Because Ham went into his fathers tent and saw him naked there and maybe just maybe disrespected him by making sport of it Noah considered he ought to curse Ham's son for it? Also again... why does it say that Canaan is the brother of Shem and Japheth? When Ham is their brother. Would evil have come from Canaan's line if Noah hadn't cursed him?

Blessings

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

Ham is the father of Canaan and not his brother.

Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

that is the reason why i state that Cannan was not present in that shameful episode when Noah got drunk with wine and lay naked in his tent or at least the Bible did not mention the presence of Canaan specifically therefore we cannot assume that he was directly responsible for the act of dishonouring his grandfather.

We see that Ham other sons, Cush and et al. apart from Canaan

Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Put, and Canaan.

Gen 10:7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah: Sheba, and Dedan.

Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before Jehovah: wherefore it is said, Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before Jehovah

Even though all the desendants from the line of Cush like Nimrod were exceedingly evil, they were not cursed by Noah, just Canaan mentioned specificaly.

If we trace the decendants of Canaan, we find that they populated the area that is known as the land promised to Abraham and his desendants ie the Promised Land:

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt thereGen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generation.

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Gen 15:14 and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Gen 15:15 But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

So we see from the above, before God could give the Land of the amorite and the canaanites to Abraham and his desecdants, the Lord will have to let the iniquity of the canaanites to manifest fully before he can judge them.

All this is a very long wided way to explain that Noah foresaw prophesied cursed Canaan not due to the act of Ham but because he sees a very evil line in the desendants of Canaan.

Hope it helps.

[LIVN4JC]

Gen. 9:24 :"When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,"....

"There are some Scholars who believe that either Ham or Canaan, and more likely Canaan, committed an act of homosexuality on Noah; while there is no concrete proof of such, there is definitely some indication in that direction." The Expositor's Study Bible/KJV pg 19.

Unlikely explaination as the Bible does not record Cannaan as being presnt in that episode yet he was cursed instead of Ham. Noah placed a curse on Canaan as a act of prophecy as that line of Ham became the evil line that God must remove prioe to the children of Isreal possessing the land.

Blessings givennewname. Because Ham went into his fathers tent and saw him naked there and maybe just maybe disrespected him by making sport of it Noah considered he ought to curse Ham's son for it? Also again... why does it say that Canaan is the brother of Shem and Japheth? When Ham is their brother. Would evil have come from Canaan's line if Noah hadn't cursed him?

Blessings

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

Ham is the father of Canaan and not his brother.

Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

that is the reason why i state that Cannan was not present in that shameful episode when Noah got drunk with wine and lay naked in his tent or at least the Bible did not mention the presence of Canaan specifically therefore we cannot assume that he was directly responsible for the act of dishonouring his grandfather.

We see that Ham other sons, Cush and et al. apart from Canaan

Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Put, and Canaan.

Gen 10:7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah: Sheba, and Dedan.

Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before Jehovah: wherefore it is said, Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before Jehovah

Even though all the desendants from the line of Cush like Nimrod were exceedingly evil, they were not cursed by Noah, just Canaan mentioned specificaly.

If we trace the decendants of Canaan, we find that they populated the area that is known as the land promised to Abraham and his desendants ie the Promised Land:

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt thereGen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generation.

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Gen 15:14 and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Gen 15:15 But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

So we see from the above, before God could give the Land of the amorite and the canaanites to Abraham and his desecdants, the Lord will have to let the iniquity of the canaanites to manifest fully before he can judge them.

All this is a very long wided way to explain that Noah foresaw prophesied cursed Canaan not due to the act of Ham but because he sees a very evil line in the desendants of Canaan.

Hope it helps.

Again blessings. I agreed with you about Canaan not being present at the time. Yes Ham is Canaan's father. But scripture says that Canaan is brother to Shem and Japheth, that is confusing in itself. How did Noah know Canaan would have evil line was it by the curse? Why would he curse Canaan if he wasn't there? What did Canaan do to deserve to be cursed?

In His Loving Hands,

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

P.S. sorry don't know how to work the quote thing so had to post the whole thing.

[givennewname]

Gen. 9:24 :"When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,"....

"There are some Scholars who believe that either Ham or Canaan, and more likely Canaan, committed an act of homosexuality on Noah; while there is no concrete proof of such, there is definitely some indication in that direction." The Expositor's Study Bible/KJV pg 19.

Unlikely explaination as the Bible does not record Cannaan as being present in that episode yet he was cursed instead of Ham. Noah placed a curse on Canaan as a act of prophecy as that line of Ham became the evil line that God must remove prioe to the children of Isreal possessing the land.

Blessings givennewname. Because Ham went into his fathers tent and saw him naked there and maybe just maybe disrespected him by making sport of it Noah considered he ought to curse Ham's son for it? Also again... why does it say that Canaan is the brother of Shem and Japheth? When Ham is their brother. Would evil have come from Canaan's line if Noah hadn't cursed him?

Blessings

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

Ham is the father of Canaan and not his brother.

Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

that is the reason why i state that Canaan was not present in that shameful episode when Noah got drunk with wine and lay naked in his tent or at least the Bible did not mention the presence of Canaan specifically therefore we cannot assume that he was directly responsible for the act of dishonouring his grandfather.

We see that Ham other sons, Cush and et al. apart from Canaan

Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Put, and Canaan.

Gen 10:7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah: Sheba, and Dedan.

Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before Jehovah: wherefore it is said, Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before Jehovah

Even though all the desendants from the line of Cush like Nimrod were exceedingly evil, they were not cursed by Noah, just Canaan mentioned specificaly.

If we trace the decendants of Canaan, we find that they populated the area that is known as the land promised to Abraham and his desendants ie the Promised Land:

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt thereGen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generation.

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Gen 15:14 and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Gen 15:15 But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

So we see from the above, before God could give the Land of the amorite and the canaanites to Abraham and his desecdants, the Lord will have to let the iniquity of the canaanites to manifest fully before he can judge them.

All this is a very long wided way to explain that Noah foresaw prophesied cursed Canaan not due to the act of Ham but because he sees a very evil line in the desendants of Canaan.

Hope it helps.

Again blessings. I agreed with you about Canaan not being present at the time. Yes Ham is Canaan's father. But scripture says that Canaan is brother to Shem and Japheth, that is confusing in itself. How did Noah know Canaan would have evil line was it by the curse? Why would he curse Canaan if he wasn't there? What did Canaan do to deserve to be cursed?

In His Loving Hands,

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

P.S. sorry don't know how to work the quote thing so had to post the whole thing.

Let me see if i can help without adding to more confusion to the study. Sometimes confusion can arise when we read the Bible with our own preconcieved sense of what is right or wrong in our eyes.

I think one of your questions arise from the fact you associate the "cursing of Canaan with what his father Ham did or did not do to Noah. Also you felt that it was unjust of Noah to curse Canaan instead of Ham.

Answer to the first assumption: in short and simple way: No Noah did not curse Ham for what he did.

It is biblical principle of personal accountability for sin. For instance when Adam sinned he paid the penalty for that in dying spiritually and physically. That is biblical principle as stated later in ezekiel, the father shall not die for the son's sin neither does the son die for the father's iniquity.

Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Wherefore doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? when the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

so we are very clear on personal accountability of sin, each man shall pay for the consequences of their actions.

This is further reflected in the fact that Noah did not kick Ham out of the family, if he did, then we could surmise that Noah uttered that curse out of a sense of vengeance for being wronged by his son Ham. he should have punished Ham and not Canaan.

secondly we are not told what the "sin" was that Ham had committed. Many have speculated that it was lusting after his father's nakedness, ie some kind of homosexuality was involved. If it was, the Ham should have been stoned immediately by Noah, for that was the penalty of homosexuality even in pre Mosaic time. I believed it was another "sin" that Ham committed which contaminated his line of descendants: he slept with one of Noah's wives while he was drunk... Look at the scripture below quoted:

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It is possible that Ham slept with his own mother being raised in a sexually perverse world before the flood. That may have resulted in the birth of Canaan which resulted in a very evil line. that in a way also explains why Canaan is called Shem's and Japheth's brother and also a son to Ham in a literal sense. it would also make sense why Canaan was cursed instead of Ham and why Ham's other descendants were not affected by the curse.

The descendants of Canaan were very evil and idolatous to the point where God ordered the Isrealites to completely practice a policy of scourged earth, even the animals and the possessions of the Cannanites were to be disposed of. The children of isreal completely ignored this command, instead never conquered the Cananites fully and in the times of the Kings, one very evil Canaanite in the form of Jezebel arose to torment them.

Did Noah's curse get fulfilled?? Not yet. The pheonicians who gave much trouble to the isrealites still became their constant tormentors up to today and never really became their "servant". I await a future fulfillment of this prophecy.

Seet

[Matthitjah]

Gen. 9:24 :"When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,"....

"There are some Scholars who believe that either Ham or Canaan, and more likely Canaan, committed an act of homosexuality on Noah; while there is no concrete proof of such, there is definitely some indication in that direction." The Expositor's Study Bible/KJV pg 19.

Unlikely explaination as the Bible does not record Cannaan as being present in that episode yet he was cursed instead of Ham. Noah placed a curse on Canaan as a act of prophecy as that line of Ham became the evil line that God must remove prioe to the children of Isreal possessing the land.

Blessings givennewname. Because Ham went into his fathers tent and saw him naked there and maybe just maybe disrespected him by making sport of it Noah considered he ought to curse Ham's son for it? Also again... why does it say that Canaan is the brother of Shem and Japheth? When Ham is their brother. Would evil have come from Canaan's line if Noah hadn't cursed him?

Blessings

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

Ham is the father of Canaan and not his brother.

Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

that is the reason why i state that Canaan was not present in that shameful episode when Noah got drunk with wine and lay naked in his tent or at least the Bible did not mention the presence of Canaan specifically therefore we cannot assume that he was directly responsible for the act of dishonouring his grandfather.

We see that Ham other sons, Cush and et al. apart from Canaan

Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Put, and Canaan.

Gen 10:7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah: Sheba, and Dedan.

Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before Jehovah: wherefore it is said, Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before Jehovah

Even though all the desendants from the line of Cush like Nimrod were exceedingly evil, they were not cursed by Noah, just Canaan mentioned specificaly.

If we trace the decendants of Canaan, we find that they populated the area that is known as the land promised to Abraham and his desendants ie the Promised Land:

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt thereGen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generation.

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Gen 15:14 and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Gen 15:15 But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

So we see from the above, before God could give the Land of the amorite and the canaanites to Abraham and his desecdants, the Lord will have to let the iniquity of the canaanites to manifest fully before he can judge them.

All this is a very long wided way to explain that Noah foresaw prophesied cursed Canaan not due to the act of Ham but because he sees a very evil line in the desendants of Canaan.

Hope it helps.

Again blessings. I agreed with you about Canaan not being present at the time. Yes Ham is Canaan's father. But scripture says that Canaan is brother to Shem and Japheth, that is confusing in itself. How did Noah know Canaan would have evil line was it by the curse? Why would he curse Canaan if he wasn't there? What did Canaan do to deserve to be cursed?

In His Loving Hands,

Sister in Christ

LIVN4JC

P.S. sorry don't know how to work the quote thing so had to post the whole thing.

Let me see if i can help without adding to more confusion to the study. Sometimes confusion can arise when we read the Bible with our own preconcieved sense of what is right or wrong in our eyes.

I think one of your questions arise from the fact you associate the "cursing of Canaan with what his father Ham did or did not do to Noah. Also you felt that it was unjust of Noah to curse Canaan instead of Ham.

Answer to the first assumption: in short and simple way: No Noah did not curse Ham for what he did.

It is biblical principle of personal accountability for sin. For instance when Adam sinned he paid the penalty for that in dying spiritually and physically. That is biblical principle as stated later in ezekiel, the father shall not die for the son's sin neither does the son die for the father's iniquity.

Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Wherefore doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? when the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

so we are very clear on personal accountability of sin, each man shall pay for the consequences of their actions.

This is further reflected in the fact that Noah did not kick Ham out of the family, if he did, then we could surmise that Noah uttered that curse out of a sense of vengeance for being wronged by his son Ham. he should have punished Ham and not Canaan.

secondly we are not told what the "sin" was that Ham had committed. Many have speculated that it was lusting after his father's nakedness, ie some kind of homosexuality was involved. If it was, the Ham should have been stoned immediately by Noah, for that was the penalty of homosexuality even in pre Mosaic time. I believed it was another "sin" that Ham committed which contaminated his line of descendants: he slept with one of Noah's wives while he was drunk... Look at the scripture below quoted:

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It is possible that Ham slept with his own mother being raised in a sexually perverse world before the flood. That may have resulted in the birth of Canaan which resulted in a very evil line. that in a way also explains why Canaan is called Shem's and Japheth's brother and also a son to Ham in a literal sense. it would also make sense why Canaan was cursed instead of Ham and why Ham's other descendants were not affected by the curse.

The descendants of Canaan were very evil and idolatous to the point where God ordered the Isrealites to completely practice a policy of scourged earth, even the animals and the possessions of the Cannanites were to be disposed of. The children of isreal completely ignored this command, instead never conquered the Cananites fully and in the times of the Kings, one very evil Canaanite in the form of Jezebel arose to torment them.

Did Noah's curse get fulfilled?? Not yet. The pheonicians who gave much trouble to the isrealites still became their constant tormentors up to today and never really became their "servant". I await a future fulfillment of this prophecy.

Seet

Grace to you,

Why add something to Scripture that is not there and not supported? Where was the curse for Noahs wife for participating in this sin?

Folks, sometimes the simplest answer is the answer.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

1Pe

[nebula]

Genesis 9 (English Standard Version)

Genesis 9:

21 He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside.

23 Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father

[nebula]

P.S. sorry don't know how to work the quote thing so had to post the whole thing.

Hit the "Reply" button to post only the one post.

Then delete out of the post (highlight the parts and hit the delete button) the parts you don't need (i.e. the previous quotes of others).

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Plus if Noah was pronouncing the curse on the posterity of Ham, why wasn't his first son cursed for he would have inherited the posterity not the youngest and fourth son Canaan?

Cannan took up his fathers despicable nature of not honoring his father which in it's simpliest form is an affront to Gods Law.

The first son of Hams name was, Cush.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest HIS girl]

The first son of Hams name was, Cush.

Are the Cushites (Ancient Egyptians) descendants of Ham?

[kross]

Grace to you,

God Bless you sister. There are never too many questions.

I'm of the opinion that Ham rather than covering his fathers sin with Grace made sport of it. Rather than take up the first order of Gods Law concering an honoring of his father above all things, he derided his father contemptuously.

De