AdHoc

The matter of the souls under the altar is not complicated if we interpret scripture with scripture. The difficulties arise because many Christians automatically assume that the Roman Catholic doctrine of "going to heaven after death" is valid. The doctrine has its root in the fact that Rome "married" the Church in about 313 AD when Constantine declared Christianity a State religion. Because the Romans worshiped the "heavenly host", and because they believed that works justified one before the gods, their belief was that if one's works were weighed in the scales of justice and found to outweigh one's evil works, one would ascend to a "heavenly lodge". But the Bible tells totally different story. First, there is not a single verse that plainly says that men go to heaven at death. Some verses are twisted to mean this, but the truth of the matter is that this doctrine is built on innuendo. So what does the Bible really say? The Bible says that man is made of three parts, body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:8, 1st Thess 5:23 etc.). Since he was made, man is called a "soul" because that it his main part. 1st Thessalonians 5:23, a prayer by Paul, says that the "whole" man is body, soul and spirit. At death the three parts are torn apart. The body returns to the elements. The spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7, Lk.23:46). The soul, which is the man, descends to a subterranean place called Hades to wait for the resurrection. Even our Lord Jesus was not exempt and had to wait three days in Hades (Matt.12:40, Eph.4:8, Act.2:27). The word Hades means "hidden" and this is appropriate for: A dead man is regarded as naked (2nd Cor.5:1-4) - an unnatural state which God cannot look upon A dead man is unclean (Nu.19:11-13) Death is the enemy of God (1st Co.15:26) Finally, in every single case the dead "RISE" - an impossibility if they were already "on high" in heaven. Now we must discover which altar is meant. There are, in God plan, TWO altars. The altar of sacrifice and bloodshed in the outer court of the Tabernacle/Temple. It is made of wood covered with Brass and may not be lifted from the earth "lest nakedness is seen" (Ex.20:26). On this altar sacrifices to god are made. Brass denotes judgment because the brass was taken from the Rebel Korah and his hoard when he rebelled against Moses and was judged by fire. The altar of Incense place just before the Veil leading into the Holy of Holies. It too was made of wood but covered with Gold. Blood is forbidden to be shed on it. It carried the insence which depicts Christ the High Priest sending up the prayers of His people as a sweet savor to God. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he followed a pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle which God gave him on the mountain. In heaven, there is neither earth onto which the Tabernacle can be fixed, nor is their salvation for any heavenly creature. So the altar of sacrifice is an addition to the tabernacle ONLY VALID FOR EARTH. Added to this, the martyrs' blood was shed on earth and their blood was a sacrifice made to God. THE ALTAR OF REVELATION 6:9 IS ON EARTH AND THE MARTYRS ARE UNDER THE EARTH - AS THE REST OF THE BIBLE AGREES WITH. The are in HADES under the earth. But more important is their prayer. In Luke 9:52-56 a Samaritan village, the same place that Elijah called fire from heaven centuries before, refused to entertain Jesus. His indignant disciples suggested to call fire on them. Our Lord Jesus sharply rebuked them and said that they were from another spirit. He said that He had come to save men - not kill. How come our Lord does not say the same to the Martyrs? The answer is that the martyrs had recognized that the end of the age of grace had come. God is just and blow must be met by blow. An eye for an eye and a life for a life! But, for the sake of reconciliation between God and man, God postpones judgment in the Church age so that men may have time to discover God. Justice is not neglected though, for it falls on Jesus. Added to this, there is a judgment for the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and a judgement for the risen dead in Revelation 20. Justice is not forgotten - just postponed. There will come a day when those who have loved the Lord and been intimate with Him will RECOGNIZE that the age of grace is over. The martyrs were first, and the two Witnesses of Revelation 11 were next, for they called down fire to kill men. Let us preach the gospel with energy so that we may bear fruit and make our lovely Lord's death worth it. But let us also be aware that there comes a day, not far away, when we will be required to wield a sword in Jesus' Name. Revelation 19 shows those found worthy to enter the Wedding Feast. From verse 11 it shows that these same Overcomers will form part of Christ's army for Armageddon. Let us be under no illusion. The Overcomer will do God's will when he turns the other cheek, but in a matter of weeks he could be required to kill in the bloodbath that runs up to the bridles of the horses (Rev.14:20). The Christian, whether tendered hearted sister, or hardened ex veteran, must be ready to feel sorrow for the lost and preach the gospel on Monday, and wield a sword against a man's head on Friday. The lesson of the martyrs under the altar of their own blood is crucial. Are you an Overcomer that knows His Lord's will, whether in suffering or in administering justice?

In retrospect you are correct. Please ignore the posting. Sorry for sidetracking.

Quite. According Mark 16:17 casting out demons is a sign that Christians are at work. Added to this, the judgment they face is not whether they were saved, but whether they did the will of the Father in heaven. That is, that special assize reserved for Christians after rapture (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). And the grammar indicates that it was not the works that were Lawless, but those claiming to have done these things. In Acts 16 what would have happened to Paul if he had gone to Asia and Bithynia? Did he not have the words of Jesus commanding him to preach the gospel to "the uttermost parts of the earth"? Surely. But is that God's plan to today? Paul must not wait long. He is required in Macedonia. Another time he waited a week before casting out a demon that had interfered from the first day. Many Christians "do their own thing". They are believers, born again and sons of God, but like king Saul of old, they do "what is right in their own eyes". The Greek word for "know" that our Lord used is the same word as Joseph not "knowing" Mary till Jesus was born. It indicates the most intimate of relationships. Those who called "Lord, Lord" knew ABOUT Jesus, had believed in Him, had been furnished with the power of the Holy Spirit and done the works they claimed. But they are classed as REBELS.

You've addressed an important point. When God made man, He actually had four purposes with man: Man was to be in the image and likeness of God to display God to the fullest extent (Romans 1 says that the creature makes the things of God known) Man was be a "help-meet", or a "companion up to the standard of" the Man Jesus (Ephesians 5 says that marriage is the picture of a reality - Christ and the Church) Man was to first subdue and then rule the earth (The previous king, Lucifer, had brought disorder) Man was to "fence about and bring to order" (lit. Heb.) a Garden of Fellowship between God and man Now, Since God is Almighty and His councils are immutable, we would expect to see these four things achieved in the fulness of time. And if we follow 2nd Peter 1:20, that is, not interpreting the Bible with private thoughts, and if we are disciplined to only interpret scripture with scripture, the New Jerusalem, if taken literally, produces absurdities. The city is 2,000 kilometers cubed, the City is a Bride and Israel are pearls with the Tree of Life (singular) on both sides of the (singular) street of it. But if we heed John's introductory verse, and apply the rest of the bible as the basis for understanding it, a wonder, all-inclusive picture emerges - a picture that would have taken a thousand pages to describe. Rev.1:1 says; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, The word "signified" means transmitted by signs. In John Chapter 2 our Lord Jesus really did change water into wine, but scripture calls it a "sign". That is, a "sign" in the Bible is a real thing but which depicts truths. So, if we apply ourselves to the rest of the Bible, we see the following; The City is heavenly in origin but on a "renewed" earth (lit. Gk.) The City is Christ's Wife. This can only be the Church. He is a precious Stone and the Church is like Him - precious stones The City has walls like Eden was to be fenced. It is the consummate place were God's holiness is upheld when He meets with His creature. All defiling things are outside the Walls The City has the shape of the Holy of Holies - a Cube The City has the number of God's People - 12 The City has three glories; (i) God's glory, (ii) Christ's glory and (iii) its own glory (created by the Church). Thus, the creature displays God The City is God's House - He dwells in the Church God is the House - all inside dwell IN Him The City is measured by angels - that is, it is built in resurrection life, for men in resurrection are like the angels The City is for ruling The City has Gates which let in some of the Nations and refuse others These Gates are not the city but belong to the overall function of the City. Precious stones are different to pearls These Gates must also be a people of God because they are 12 There is no death - death has been subdued as the last enemy by the general resurrection of the "rest of the dead" There is justice - those who went against God and man face the Lake of Fire and are refused audience with God ... and so on. We have, by a "sign", a wonderfully informing picture of the consummation of God's plan with the earth and Man. In the wilderness we had a "sojourning Tabernacle". God's House was transitory in enemy territory In occupied Israel we had a fixed House in which God dwelt IN Christ we have a "Spiritual Temple for aGod Who is a Spirit", but made of a living Man In the Church we have an ENLARGED House of men in the flesh which is a "sojourning House" IN the Millennium we have a House made with hands for Emanuel to live and rule from - physical Jerusalem In the Millennium we have a House that has the "keys to the Kingdom" - the Church - for ruling the Nations On the New Earth, we have the same, but perfected and consummate. Since Abraham's seed is promised Canaan as an "everlasting possession" things on earth will nt be much different from the Millennium except all things will be "NEW". The Greek word means "made pristine".

Yeah. Numbers 14 says in the opening verses that "all the people" (Joshua and Caleb exempted) wept and murmured. Now that you bring that up, the narrative of the fiery serpents is another example of the sin-nature. The people murmur. God does not shut their mouths and so deal with the TRESPASS. He allows poison to flow in their blood to show them that the onset of death is in their very being. And then, when they looked upon the Brazen Serpent, they were NOT HEALED! They "LIVED" (Nu.21:9). This indicates that the underlying problem was not the murmuring. That was the FRUIT. The underlying problem was the serpentine portion coursing through their inward parts. This confirmed by the context of John 12 where our Lord alludes to this event. The context points to the inner problem: Christ will release His inner life like a grain of wheat does. This is only for the Church The "kind" of death He would die was to deal with the Prince of this world who had the power of death. So i Numbers He takes the form of a serpent. But it is Brazen, showing judgment, but without the nature of the serpent. His death would not draw the Church only, but "ALL men". This again alludes to John 1:29 where His death is so that all men can be resurrected. The sin-nature causes death to all men. Its solution is Christ's death as the Lamb. In Egypt, had any Egyptians applied the blood of the Lamb, the angel would have Passed over them. The angel only looked for the blood - not the behavior. According to Joshua 24 and Stephen in Acts 7, Israel were worshipping Egyptian demon gods as much as the Egyptians were. The Lamb was to thwart DEATH. But as per promise of God after the Golden Calf, Israel suffer RETRIBUTION in Assyria and Babylon The sin-nature causes physical DEATH. That why babies can die. Its solution is resurrection. Christ's death (Jn.1:29) allows God JUDICIALLY to raise all men without hurting His righteousness. The trespasses that come out of the sin-nature cause RETRIBUTION. The "retribution" falls either on Jesus and allows God to JUDICIALLY spare a man, or it falls on the man and he must pay in the Lake of Fire. This is Christ's death of 1st Jn.2.2. Thanks for the exchange of ideas. Go well.

Interesting. I can see why certain men use these verses, but what do they do with the unambiguous scriptures that affirm the sin-nature of even the unborn? I agree with your summation, but would like to deal with Isaiah 7 and Deuteronomy 1 in a simpler way - mainly for the young Christian. The solution is in the grammar. They both address "KNOWLEDGE" of sin. One does not have to have "knowledge" of sin to display its nature. The "knowledge" of sin surely is for the maturer man (or age of accountability) but it pertains to the FRUIT of the sin-nature, namely TRESPASSES. The two-year-old who pulls the cat's tail or has a tantrum, displays the nature but has no recognition that it is evil - though evil it is. The teenager who puts the cat into a tub of boiling water displays the same nature but conscience has its work and he/she senses good and evil. Besides the grammar, the well versed student of scripture must know of the difference between the "Sin-Offering" and the "Trespass Offering". Christ was the fulfillment of both. Added to this, Genesis 1:11-12 makes the doctrine man's sin-nature immutable. God has set forth a Law that anything with a seed within itself will produce the same kind. Adam had no offspring before the fall. That is, every man ever to come out of Adam's loins MUST have the sin-nature by the Law of "kinds". And one need go no further than Genesis Chapter 5 to affirm this. Adam, made in God's likeness, did not produce a man in God's likeness. He produced a man in HIS (Adam's) OWN likeness. Genesis 5:1–3 (NKJV) 1This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. ... 3And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. No wonder the line of Adam must be removed from the insemination of Jesus. Finally, logic should have settled the matter. If the wages of sin (singular) is death, and all men IN Adam die (Rom.5:23, 1st Cor.15:22), it is given that all men had "sin" (singular). And this is brutally proven in that babies, in or out of the mother's womb - before they have "known" evil - still die on a daily basis. And this is why, in John 1:29, in contrast to 1st John 2:2, our Lord Jesus must die for the "sin" (singular) of the world. It again shows that if God wants to resurrect every man, this terrible legacy that afflicts both the fetus and the hoary-headed man, must be put away from before God. As long as one man carries Adam's nature, 1st Corinthians 15:22 cannot be fulfilled. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive

Government. In Genesis 1:26-28 God makes man and He gives him dominion over earth and its environs. Where shall that man dwell? Unlike God, Who is a Spirit, man is physical. He is made from the earth, to be nourished by the earth and his job is to rule the earth. The unit of Government is a CITY (Lk.19:17-19). And within this city lives the king of that city. He occupies a HOUSE in that city. David's house is built but the God of "heaven and EARTH" has no House. David purposes in his heart that God should have a HOUSE. God allows him to prepare the plans and materials, but his son, Solomon, must build it. The purpose of a house is primarily to protect from the elements. God is no different except that the elements, being unholy, defile Him if He allowed it. So His House is built a special way. It is built so that He may maintain His holiness but still draw men to Himself. The Tabernacle/Temple has a Veil and a High Priest - one to protect God's holiness and the other to mediate for Israel. Hard on the Veil is the Altar of Incense which speaks of Christ carrying our prayers up to God. The Temple of the Millennium does the same. The Nations pour into Jerusalem to learn of God, and our Lord Jesus, Emanuel, carries their prayers to God. 1st Timothy 2:5 says there is ONE Mediator between God and MEN (all men) - the MAN Jesus Isa.56:6-8 6 Also the sons of the alien, that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast to my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples. Micah 4:1-2 1 But it shall come to pass in the end of days that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and the peoples shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and Jehovah’s word from Jerusalem.

Nice swapping ideas with you too. Go well.

What then do you think of Exodus 29? It seems like that's exactly what the Tabernacle was for. In verses 43-46 the language is without ambiguity. But you have a good point. It is the physical Temple that is to be a "House of Prayer" for not only Israel, but the Gentiles.

Thank you for your answer Marilyn. Instead of rebuttal, may I present the events as I see them, with supporting scripture, and then, if my answer is not too long, comment on the scriptures you gave. We know that scripture has an heptadic structure - sevens everywhere. Now, without going into a long explanation, the first Sabbath is glaringly not defined by "the evening and the morning". It is defined by Adam's life. It is; "IN the day you eat ...", or "WITHIN the day ... ". Adam was made last on the sixth day, so his first day was the Sabbath. And Adam died after 930 years. Now, 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of scripture, so we must turn to the "days" of the Bible to define "that day" in which Adam died. A a study of the whole Bible will show that there are FIVE different "days". (i) The period of sunlight, (ii) the evening and the morning - 24 hours from sunset to sunset, (iii) an event, like the "day of the Lord", (iv) a year, when it is prophecy like Daniel's weeks or the number of years Judah must be in exile that the Land has her Sabbaths, and (v) a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. Now, which one fits Adam's life. The answer of course is number (v). Adam died WITHIN a day and he made 930 years. Likewise, Hebrews 3 and 4 speak of two other Sabbaths. (i) The time that Israel occupied the Land until the were carried away in chastisement, and (ii) a FUTURE Sabbath where God will be able to rest. Expositors and historians are divided on how long Israel sojourned in the Good Land from Joshua to Nebuchadnezzar, but the all agree on one thing. It was just under 1,000 years. If we take this proof, and add the "principle of first mention", then the "future Sabbath" of Hebrews 4 must be defined as the others were - by 1,000 years. And we find a perfect 1,000 years after Christ's return in Revelation 20. Adam succumbed to Satan and could not complete the thousand years of God's Rest. Israel succumbed to Satan and could not complete that Sabbath Rest. But Christ, Whose Kingdom is without end, easily subdues Satan, the earth and even death to complete His Father's rest. This 1,000 years is very important for a number of reasons, but it is equally important to our discussion. For if the 1,000 years is the SEVENTH 1,000 year period and God's Rest, then the rebellion of Magog is a thousand years AFTER your calculation. Let us examine the differences between the end of this age, and the rebellion of Magog. Israel is by no means returned to their Land by the end of the Great Tribulation for they are only "gathered from the FOUR WINDS (only Israel was scattered to the four winds)" "after the Tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29-31). This is Ezekiel 37. But Ezekiel 38:8, and other verses, say that Israel has already been gathered out of the nations and dwells safely in their land. Israel live in "unwalled cities" when Magog attacks. That is, they have had years of safety. Israel of today lives in constant state of persecution. Not only is Jerusalem walled, but walls are errected to keep out the Palestinians. Ezekeil 38-39 cannot be at the end of this age. Magog comes with horses, shields and swords. Why not with tanks and missiles? Even today's enemies of Israel use modern weapons. The answer is that after Christ returns no weapons with be produced for 1,000 years (Isa.2:4). Ezekiel 38:21-22 says that God will fight that day, and by two methods; (i) Confusion among men, and (ii) raining fire. At Armageddon, Christ wages war with the Sword of His Word and gets covered in blood And, as mentioned, Christ will have reigned for 1,000 years by then. This reign starts at the end of 3.5 years, or 1260 days, in Revelation 11:15. The Beast is the grand enemy of Christ and is the general of the Gentile army at Armageddon. Magog is the grand enemy of God and is the General of his army - two different battles and two different Generals separated by 1,000 years There is more, but "by two or three witnesses shall everything be established" and I have shown 5 points of difference between Armageddon and Magog. Now, returning to your Original Point about the "fulness of the Gentiles", have you considered that it (i) must be an event in time because the word used is "UNTIL". And (ii) those who become believers are NOT "the fullness of the Gentiles". According to Ephesians 2:15 they are taken from "TWAIN", or "TWO" - the "two" being the Gentiles and Israel. And then to further complicated such a concept, those who become converted are WITHOUT ethnicity. "There is NO Jew NOR Greek in the New Man ... " (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). Next, there is no verse that says Israel will turn to Christ. Their darkest hour is still before them - when they allow the Beast in God's Temple (2nd Thess.2:4). They "mourn" when they finally see the One Whom they pierced. Our Lord does not come from Bethlehem nor Galilee to save them, but from Sion just north of Jerusalem. Next, Jeremiah 31 promises a New Covenant of Law with Israel AND Judah. That is, Israel must be restored to their Land and ONE NATION again. It is only THEN that Israel's sins are removed (Jer.31:34). Next, in Romans it is not FAITH that causes their sins to be put away, but pure mercy. And that mercy is not because Israel kept the Law, but because of the Covenant with Abraham. Lastly, a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Joshua 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). The Olive Tree is NOT the Church but Christ's Kingdom. To make it the Church presupposes that Israel WERE already in the Church and were cut out - an absurdity since Israel never ever believed. I am aware of the prevailing understanding of Romans Chapter 9 to 11. Bible students have seen the words "all Israel will be saved" and, without warrant, have made it to mean the same salvation as a Christian experiences. But Zacharias' prediction of Israel's "salvation" is NOT rebirth and/or eternal life. It is the recovery of Israel to what God promised Israel through Abraham. I apologize for going so long. Thank you in anticipation for your time and consideration, and your courteous manner.

2. As promised, it now time to examine Matthew 13:40–43 (NKJV) 40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! These verses are largely ignored by student of scripture. It is an interesting exercise to try to find commentary on them which includes the deadly warning. If we catalog the facts as the grammar presents, the astute student of scripture will immediately see the somberness of it. In verse 40 the angels harvest the Tares and they are "burned in the fire". That ends the subject of the Tares. The next sentence refers to Christ's Kingdom - not the Tares. Now to be a member of Christ's Kingdom you have t be born again (Jn.3:3-5). Thus,verses 41-43 CONCERN CHRISTIANS! This doubly settled by the fact that the WHEAT is dealt with To be wheat you must come from Christ (Jn.12:24) With this double proof concerning His Kingdom, it is NOT the unfaithful who are them divided from the faithless, BUT THE LAWLESS FROM THE RIGHTEOUS - that is, WORKS are the deciding factor. With the DIVISION of Tares from Wheat it is the SEED that counts, but concerning the Wheat, its members are divided into TWO BASED ON WORKS This can only lead to one conclusion. Rebirth, eternal life and sonship to God are by FAITH, but entry into the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth IS DEPENDENT ON WORKS. Is this confirmed by other scriptures? In Matthew 5:20 the Lord Jesus said that OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. He is not talking about the righteousness of God which is accorded to the believer In Matthew 7:21-23 certain men who knew Jesus and had done wondrous works are refused the Kingdom because they were LAWLESS - that is, not DOING the will of the Father In Matthew 22:11-14 the Kingdom is LIKENED to a Wedding Feast and one who accepted the call and tried to enter the Feast (which is the kingdom), is ejected because his "garment" did not fit. According to Revelation 19:7-8 the wedding garment is the WORKS OF THE SAINT - not the imputed righteousness of God In Matthew 24:45-51 the unfaithful servant, who was once faithful, is cast out of the Kingdom for his WORKS In Matthew 25 the Kingdom is LIKE a Wedding. The five foolish Virgins are the same as the wise in seven points. they only difference is that they dis not BUY extra oil. Their folly was that they did not PAY and PRICE THEMSELVES In Matthew 25 the servant who buried his Talent is still called a servant after his sentence. He is cast out of the Kingdom because of WHAT HE DID In 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the Kingdom. In this case it was taking a fellow Christina to a heathen court of law. The letter is addressed to "all, who in every place, call upon the Lord" (1:2) In Galatians 5:21 the WORKERS of the flesh are excluded from the kIngdom. The letter is addressed to Churches. In Ephesians 5:5 the WORKERS of the flesh are excluded from the Kingdom. The letter is addressed to Christians. I propose that the parable of the Tares not only shows the fiery end of the counterfeit Christian, but FIRE AS WELL for the Christian who does not obey God's Words.

If certain students of scripture use this verse to show the completeness of the Church, they are far wrong. Romans Chapter 9, 10 & 11 show on what basis God can restore Israel. Romans 11:25 sets the TIME that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief. It pertains to Luke 21:24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled. This concept is used again for the reason why God delayed Israel's gaining of the Good Land to four hundred years in Genesis 15:16. 16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. In Daniel Chapter 2, Gentile Government is shown by the four world powers with their types of government. "In the days of the ten toes" Christ will suddenly appear and ruthlessly destroy this Gentile government. So this government is given a TIME until which God removes them and installs Christ. Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief until Christ bursts out the clouds over Mt. Olivet, saves Jerusalem and then conquers Gentile military and political power at Armageddon in Jezreel. It then that the times of the Gentiles are full. But, I'm interested in your posting. Do you think that Christ will return without having enlivened the set number of Christians? I'll tell you why this is important. Rebirth and eternal life are only gained by FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance and hope of things UNSEEN. The moment our Lord Jesus is SEEN (coming from the clouds) faith CEASES. He can be SEEN and the formula for faith dissolves. If Israel remains in unbelief until Christ is SEEN, then their salvation is not the same as a Christian.

I agree in general with you. The Tabernacle was God's dwelling. So was Solomon's Temple. And our Lord Jesus called Zerubbabel's Temple "His Father's House" in John Chapter 2. It is not that God DID not dwell in a House made with hands, by that He will CHANGE His abode. This is revealed in John 4 as our Lord advises the Samaritan woman that "The hour COMES and NOW IS ... " that the PLACE where God is to be met is the human spirit. This is an eternal House and will never be given up. But the MAN Jesus will return to earth and set up His Kingdom at the end of this age. He will live somewhere. But besides being the "Most High" in other scriptures, to Israel He is called "EMANUEL" - that is, "God WITH us". The close of the age is a deciding point. Two thousand years ago, EMANUEL was presented to Israel. He was rejected and leaves the Temple, His Father's House, "DESOLATE" (Matt.23:38). Since then, Jesus is preached to all nations including the Jews who are scattered among them. Now, at the very end they must choose. At Jesus' trial they chose Caesar. Who will they choose now after 2,000 years? So a Temple will be built. Matthew 24, 2nd Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 11 are clear. There will be a physical Temple in Jerusalem at the end of the age. And 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 calls it "God's Temple". Israel is God's people. Canaan is God's Good Land, and Jerusalem is "the city of the great King". God lays claim to anything built there - especially if Jews build it. But Israel choose Caesar again - a Gentile king (Dan.9). And it is the final choice that provokes God. Matthew 24 advises all who "see" this event (that means that live at or near Jerusalem) to run and not stop to get their coats. Indeed, GOD'S Temple is occupied by an imposter. The rest of the events are almost undisputed by all fundamental Bible students. Our Lord Jesus breaks forth from the clouds, frees Jerusalem and marches, with His army, to Armageddon were He has gathered the combined Gentile military power. In one battle, in one place, Christ destroys the military, and political power of the Gentiles. The prophets say that His kingdom is (i) one that will fill the whole earth and (ii) an everlasting kingdom. The question is; WHERE WILL THE KING LIVE??" The answer is - in the Temple of Ezekiel. This is for TWO REASONS; The rebuilt Temple is defiled by a mere man - the Beast. God does not take second place to anyone The Temple as the Jews know it does NOT reflect the finished work of Christ. Ezekiel's Temple is different to the first two because the Holy Place is no more. The Veil was torn and the way to God is open. There is no Veil and no reason for the contents of the Holy Place as EMANUEL is the fulfillment of them all. The only question now to be answered is; What happens to the third Temple? We cannot say, but if we examine the evidence it is likely that the earthquake of Revelation 11:13 will destroy it. Summary: God has set up His House as the Church - a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2). As the "Almighty" He does not live in a House made with hands The INCARNATE God - Jesus - A MAN, will dwell in Jerusalem and will have, as His House, Ezekiel's Temple. The "greater Solomon" will not lack is glory and pomp as King of the whole earth with His House in Jerusalem.

From the Greek word rendered "Covet" we get the word "Zealous". In modern English the word "covet" is given an illegal dimension, but it is not so in the Bible. In the Bible the object desired decides whether it is illegal or not. So; Modern English "Covet" means to inordinately and illegally desire something Bible "Covet" is to earnestly and zealously desire something. That something could be legal or illegal

There is a number of points here that many students of Matthew 13 miss. The end of the age is a harvest. If we study end-time prophecy, the general consensus is that the Church is harvested first - sometime before the Great Tribulation. (Hey, you post-Trib guys; give me three minutes and read on). But here this parable gives the harvest of the Tares first. Is not the Harvest of the unbeliever at Armageddon which is long after the Church is raptured? How are we to explain this? And then a very strange thing is revealed if we are strict with the grammar. The Tares get harvest first and burned. The next verse begins with "As Therefore". "AS THEREFORE" means "just like the Tares". Then follows the Harvest of "His (God's) Kingdom". The harvest of the Tares is over. And the tares were never "His Kingdom" because to be in His Kingdom one has to be REBORN (Jn.3:3-5). According to the grammar, the "things that offend cannot be Tares, but must be Wheat". How shall we explain this? 1. The Tares Harvested First. The Tares, literally "Darnel" is not just the unbeliever. They are COUNTERFEIT Christians. The parables says; "The Kingdom of Heaven IS LIKE ..." And our Lord Jesus was talking to a mixed crowd of (i) His disciples, (ii) Jews, (iii) Samaritans and (iv) Gentiles. That is, all peoples of earth would see the Kingdom LOOK LIKE ....". And this "LOOK ALIKE" would simulate the Christian Church. Now which entity looks and talks like the Christian Church but is an Imposter? There is only one - The Roman Church. In 300 AD, Rome was in serious decline. Added to this, the more Christians they martyred - the more Christians sprung. So in 313 AD, Caesar Constantine declared Christianity a State religion. The Roman soldiers changed their armour for priests robes and the name changed from "The Roman Empire" to "The HOLY Roman Empire". Caesar, called Pontifex Maximus, kept his designation and his fish shaped hat to show he worshiped the fish-god Dagon. But 97% and more of the "Holy Roman Empire" were still heathens. So to keep them happy, all the pagan feasts were kept but given Biblical names. The resurrection of Baal, three nights after the winter equinox was Christ-mas. And Ishtar, the fertility goddess, whose feast day fell on the first sun-day after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox, was named Easter. What with halloween becoming "all-saints", and the heathen idols allowed in the Churches, the infiltration and SIMULATION of the Church was complete. And just to crown it all, the Roman Church could now exercise its politics from the pulpit THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH. It became, and still is the most wealthy and politically active entity on earth. Even the most biased of tourists could not help noticing how the East-West facing Roman Churches dominate the skyline of every small and large city, especially in Europe. That the Russian Revolution and Hitler were supported by Rome is no secret. But be careful. Propagate this and you might have the Jesuits looking you up - fatally. Not so well known among Christians is the fact that we have had six world powers since Nimrod's Babel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. And while language and local customs changed, the RELIGION of all six powers was the same - Nimrod's Religion of Babel. And if a study is made of all the Theistic religions and cults of the world today, it turns out that they are all branches of one big Trunk - the BABYLONIAN RELIGION. You could say; "Babylon and her DAUGHTERS", which would make her a MOTHER who has infiltrated or spawned all the false religions of the world. And if you said this, you would agree not only with the prophets of old, but you would agree with John in Revelation 17:5 "and upon her forehead was a name written: ‘Secret, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Whores, and the Abominations of the earth.’ (Young's Literal Translation) And this leads us to the solution of why the tares are harvested first. If you read on in Chapter 17 you will find that the Beast, who supports Her and is her carrier, in order to get universal worship for the Dragon, must DO AWAY WITH HER! The Beast will demand and command, under pain of death, all mankind on earth to receive a Mark of allegiance and to WORSHIP him. He cannot afford to have a worldwide COMPETING RELIGION. So in verses 15-18 we read that the ten kings who gave the Beast his power on earth DESTROY THE WHORE. The Roman Church and all her branches, her daughters, will be destroyed at least three and a half years before Armageddon. Armageddon is no doubt a harvest too, but not of the Tares. In Revelation 14 we read that Armageddon is the harvest of THE VINE OF THE EARTH, not TARES. Matthew 13 concerns the Kingdom of the heavens and how it looks while in Mystery - that is, the Church age. 2. Why is the Kingdom of Wheat found to have offensive things which too must be burned? To shorten this answer to the OP, I will leave this for another day.

Shalom

Probably (I know because I do it myself) you have not read all the postings in the thread. If you had you would have seen that I objected to the OP and took a glaringly opposite view. So when you added your support to DeighAnn, we surely have some differences. But I'm the first one to seek common ground. On the other hand, we have this privilege of discussing without the same consequences that we would have if we were in the same Assembly. With that in mind, may I suggest a small correction to your statement about Abraham. The Abrahamic Promises are given solely at the discretion of God because He chose and called out Abraham. And the fulfillment of those promises hangs solely on a Contract. God Promises to DO something IF Abraham DOES something. The FAITH counts after this. Faith declares that God is able to fulfill this promise. And if so, then faith dictates that I get circumcised. The events of Abraham's life then dictated by his faith. They are FOUR: 1. Immediately after the Covenant is ratified by blood in Genesis 17, God tells Abraham that he won't inherit the Land in his lifetime. If Abraham still believes God, then he has declared his belief that God can raise the dead - and unheard of thing up to then. 2. Abraham defeats 3 kings with 318 men. He is offered the spoils as earthly possessions. He refuses. Abraham believed that he would receive the whole Land anyway - BUT at the hand of God - not men. 3. Abraham offers his son Isaac. This test was double-barreled. Abraham had been promised a great nation. Isaac was the channel for this. But Isaac was as yet without seed. This was a big test. But even bigger was the fact that in resurrection man is like the angels. He cannot die and he cannot marry. So Abraham must not only believe in the resurrection, but he must believe that God had a solution to the matter of no marrying (in the Bible, marriage is the sex act - not a piece of paper by a magistrate). 4. Abraham, when faced with death, again believes that he will receive the whole Land someday future AT THE HAND OF GOD - not men. So he refuses even the field of his sepulcher at the hand of men. He pay for it. The money he pays is for God's honor. Abraham is thus a "friend of God". This point of waiting for God to give you possession and not men is the crux of the temptation of Jesus by Satan. And it decides who is WORSHIPED. In Luke, Satan declares ownership of the kingdoms of this world. Our Lord Jesus does not deny this. But to gain the kingdoms of this world, Jesus must pass through a terrible suffering and pay a huge price. If He receives the Lands at Satan's hand he can avoid the pain and humility. But is he (Satan) who is trusted as His (Jesus') source. The one who feeds your hand is your Master. The temptation is grave for a man facing what Jesus faced, but He, in a much bigger way, refused the Land (the whole earth) at any hand but the Father's. Faith is the substance of hope in a thing unseen and in the One Who promises it. Faith is vital to please God, but it must FIRST have God's Words. All over the world, men have faith, but it is not in God's Word. We do not get God's Promises because of our faith. We are expected to have faith once His words are given.

Methinks you are going to have problems with that. Let us examine the following. The Covenant of Promises made with Abraham requires circumcision on Israel's part. If a male Israelite was not circumcised. He would be "cut off from his people" (Gen.17:10-14). So an Israelite who was seed of Jacob would not be an Israelite if he was "cut off from his people". The Promises made to Abraham included gaining, as an everlasting possession, Canaan. But this promise is expanded in Romans 4:13 to the whole earth. It is now not Canaan only, which was by being seed of Abraham, but the whole earth by being born of the holy Spirit (Jn.3:3-5, Dan.2:35). But immediately a difficulty arises. There is no promise to Abraham about this rebirth. It might be alluded to in that he has TWO SEEDS, one (i) as the sand of the seashore - that is, earthly, and (ii) as the stars of heaven - heavenly. But this is not part of the Covenant made with Abraham. Conversely, those who accept Christ by faith are predominantly Gentiles and they are NOT of Israel, but "sons of God". How then are they eligible for inhering what was promised to Abraham? So various scriptures deal with this, notably Ephesians (by adoption) and Galatians (by being IN Christ Who is seed of Abraham). But the text you answered to - that of Romans 9 - deals with another deep problem. Romans 1 - 5 show all men condemned. Chapter 6 shows the solution to being transported out of the clutches of sin by being buried with Christ in baptism. But the Jew will claim that he has the Law with which to be justified. Paul soon puts that notion to rest by showing that the Law, though good and spiritual and God-given, only condemns. The rel solution to the "law of sin and death" is the "The Law of life ain Christ Jesus" imparted the Holy Spirit. But Israel refuse that way. What shall become of them? The reason why this is so important is that God's honor is involved. God has given promises of owning the Land of Canaan by one covenant, but 430 years later he gave another covenant that, if broken, would cause Israel to be ejected from the Land. So Paul spends THREE Chapters on how God, without breaking His righteousness and judicial correctness, gets Israel back into their Land (i) WITHOUT them believing in Jesus Christ, and (ii) WITHOUT them keeping the Law. Marvelous!

I could be wrong, but groaning has to do with distress. But I agree with the sentiment that there is blessing attached to this groaning. The groaning means that we admit that we need a Savior and His salvation.

I appreciate your thoughts on groanings and can identify with much of your posting. But the "groanings" of Romans 8:23 have to do with living in this "vile body" (Phil.3:21 - KJV). They are the same groanings found in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5 where our present body of sin and corruption drags us down daily. In Romans 7 it is "the body of death" (v.24).

I enjoyed the OP AND the objections that followed. Instead of a long posting with argument and counter argument, I would like to set forth the reason for, and the main point of the parables in Matthew 13. But first we must define the Kingdom. A Kingdom is a sphere of rule where the king is present and his laws are executed. So when Jesus cast out demons He said that the kingdom had come. But He later left. The Church is now the only area where the rules of the King SHOULD be carried out. The King is present IN each citizen and these citizens have the "keys to the Kingdom". But on the earth at large the Gentiles rule. But their time is limited and soon their rule will be replaced by God's rule. This is the theme of the book of Daniel. Our Lord Jesus came to offer Israel the Kingdom. Both John Baptist and our Lord Jesus "came preaching the Kingdom at hand". The subjects of the King, the Jews, refused the King and by Matthew Chapter 12 their rejection reached a pinnacle as they accused our Lord of being a servant of Satan. Because the King is rejected, He must withdraw and reach another People to establish His Kingdom. Thus, while the Gentiles rule the earth, Christ is building His Kingdom on enemy territory. And in the process of building His Kingdom there will be attempts to destroy this Kingdom by the "Prince of this world". These attempts will be subtle and how the Kingdom survives is a "Mystery". Thus, it is given ONLY to disciples of Jesus to know the "Mysteries of the Kingdom" by Parables. The Sower. All FOUR recipients are Christians for the seed is "sown in their hearts" - even those who let the seed be stolen. The dangers facing the Christian in this world are summarized; (i) hardness of heart, (ii) cares and distractions of the world, and (iii) sufferings and persecution. Only a few Christians will bear fruit to the Lord. The Darnel (or tares). The enemy, perceiving that God will have His people and their testimony on earth, raises up a COUNTERFEIT kingdom. This is the Roman Church. It looks, acts, speaks and does like the Church but it has its origin in another seed. Darnel looks just like wheat until the harvest. Wheat dries up at the root and is removed from the earth to God's house and barn. As it ripens it turns golden and bows its head of rich grain. The Darnel produces a black, spiny, poisonous fruit that sticks up proudly. This parable show the counterfeit religion being destroyed first - which agrees with Revelation 17. The Mustard seed. God's People, the Church are called "the little flock" (Lk.12:32). Few are Christians compared with the worlds' population. The Mustard bush normally grows to maximum 2 meters/6 feet. It produces a piquant fruit. But something happened to it. It grows to be the big tree of Daniel 4 - Gentile government harboring demons and fallen angels. This is Christianity today - mixing in politics and and causing a shadow on earth rather than light. All manner of worldly things come out of the mega Churches. The Leaven. Leaven is always negative in the Bible. It was forbidden with anything that depicted Christ. Our Lives must be without leaven and we must put it out of the Church (1st Cor.5). The woman is Mystery Babylon the great Whore. She takes Babylonian religion and inserts it into the doctrine of the Church, and she inserts defiling things into the Church. By 320 AD, Christianity was fully "leavened". This leaven can be seen and practiced on this Forum. The Roman Church is fully leavened with their doctrines and behavior. Our Lord Jesus changes places for the next three parables. In Matthew 12, He was in a House. This was the House of Israel where His "brethren according to the flesh were". He leaves this house and teaches from the "sea" - a picture of the Nations. Now He enters another House where only He and His disciples are - the Church. Three parables follow - all pertaining to the Kingdom. When Jesus returns He will deal with THREE Peoples - (i) The Church, (ii) Israel, and (iii) the Nations or Gentiles. The Christian who wants to inherit and enter the Kingdom must have the sure knowledge that it the grand "Treasure" to be gained. Over and over, in the four gospels, the coming Kingdom, when Christ sets it upon earth, is the grand PRIZE. A Christian must be prepared to "sell all" to gain this Kingdom. He must learn righteousness, prepare to lose goods, reputation, family relations and his very life if need be. When Christ returns, He will restore Israel. According to Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Israel must return to the Law "with all their heart" in order for God to initiate this restoration. Their righteousness must be great (single great Pearl), and they must forsake their tradition (many small pearls). This a difficult parable because true students of the Bible only interpret scripture with scripture (2nd Pet.1:20). Israel is the only entity depicted by Pearls (Rev.21:9-21). Israel are blinded and in unbelief until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. They never believe in Jesus till He bursts forth from the clouds. Then they will mourn to see the one "they pierced". But we find a remnant of Israel "sealed" for God's purpose in Revelation 7. And this Remnant are those who "keep the commandments of God" in Revelation 12. When our Lord Jesus returns He will judge the nations who survive the Great Tribulation (Matthew 25:31-46). The sea depicts the Nations (e.g. Ezek.26:3). In the Nations are some who helped "the least of the Lord's brethren" during the Great Tribulation. They are the good fish. But there will be those who made life worse and who set themselves against Christians during the Great Tribulation. They are the offending fish. I take into account that the explanations are very abbreviated. There is much more to be seen in these parables concerning the Kingdom in mystery.

Nicely and concisely put.

Your question is difficult for it assumes that they were, at some time, one entity. The truth of the matter is that they were never the same. Why not read my very first posting on this thread again. I gave four reasons why they could not be the same. The simplest reason is who did Paul belong to when he persecuted the Church? Why ... Israel. So Israel is not the Church because it hates and kills Christians. The next simplest reason is the ORIGIN of both. An Israelite is one who was born of the line of Jacob. Paul calls them "kinsmen according to the FLESH" (Rom.9:3), because it takes a man and a woman to produce one. But a Christian is one who is born of the Holy Spirit. The difference could not be bigger. In Matthew 11:11 our Lord said that John Baptist was the greatest man "born to a woman", but that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he." To be in the Kingdom you have to be born of the Spirit (Jn.3:3-5). That which is born of flesh is not fit for the Kingdom (1st Cor.15:50). Then, in Romans 11 Israel is called "natural branches" and they are cut out. The Gentiles who believe are called "wild branches" and are grafted into the Kingdom. Thus, until the fullness of the Gentiles is come (Armageddon), Israel are not only different but are in UNBELIEF. Finally, in New Jerusalem, the final state of God's purpose, the Church is the Walls of the City and Israel are Gates - totally different things. Even their designation is different. Precious Stones verses Pearls. There is not a single verse stating that Israel is the Church or that it is joined to the Church The Church was not revealed to the prophets of old. That is, there is not a single prophecy concerning the Church in the Old Testament. Types and Shadows - yes. But direct prophecy - no. The Kingdom is ripped away from Israel and given to the Church (Matt.21:43). I hope this helps. Blessings.

I hear you. It is mind-numbing to hear these things for the first time. I remember all those years ago when I was confronted with them. God bless.

Hi and good morning. I have thought much about our exchange. I've come to the conclusion that instead of answering you point for point, which tends to lead us down side-roads, let me put forth my understanding, with scriptures, of Israel's future. But first, let me define the word "saved" because in many Christian's vocabulary, it has only one meaning. That is, believe in Jesus and be saved from hell. But this is not the case in the Bible. We have to define any word, and especially "saved", by its context. Let us take Ham, Noah's son. Ham was "saved" from death by the Ark. But Ham was not saved from the curse that God placed upon him for despising his origin - his father, and in so doing, despised God. Ananias and Saphira were saved by the blood of Christ from eternal death, but not saved from temporal death. And so it is with Israel. Their "salvation" is different to the Christian concept. Israel is God's chosen people among all NATIONS. What made them different was that the very God of the universe dwelt WITH them. For this privilege they receive two things. (i) A Land with secure borders in which is a City and House for God to dwell - Jerusalem. (ii) A set of Laws that would give God His honor, mean his honor and the Land its honor. The Land was a result of a Covenant of Promise, and their continued stay in the Land was governed by a Covenant of this Law. If they broke the Law, and thus the Covenant of Law, they would be ejected from the Land and dispersed among the Nations. After this threat in Deuteronomy Chapter 28, Deuteronomy Chapter 30 starts with a sad note. It assumes that Israel will be dispersed among the Nations. But together with this sad note, Moses the prophet is given a way out - a way of restoration. It is this; If Israel turn back to the Law with their whole heart, God will bring them back to their Land in peace. But the fallen man is helpless to keep God's Law (says Romans 7), and so Israel would, in normal circumstances, remain dispersed among the nations forever. But Moses the prophet, in Deuteronomy 18:18, promises them a Messiah. And Zacharias, in Luke Chapter 1, declares that this Messiah is come. Note the language and the use of the word "saved". 67 And Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and did prophesy, saying, 68 ‘Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people, 69 And did raise an horn of salvation to us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, Which have been from the age; 71 Salvation from our enemies, And out of the hand of all hating us, 72 To do kindness with our fathers, And to be mindful of His holy covenant, 73 An oath that He sware to Abraham our father, 74 To give to us, without fear, Out of the hand of our enemies having been delivered, 75 To serve Him, in holiness and righteousness Before Him, all the days of our life. 76 And thou, child, Prophet of the Highest Shalt thou be called; For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord, To prepare His ways. 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people In remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercies of our God, In which the rising from on high did look upon us, 79 To give light to those sitting in darkness and death-shade, To guide our feet to a way of peace.’ It is at once clear that the Holy Spirit declares "redemption" and "salvation" as something different to what Christians are told. In verse 68 "His People" is Israel. The Church was not revealed to the prophets of old. This is confirmed by the "horn of salvation" coming from "David's House(hold)". David is king of Israel, not any other nation. The basis of this "redemption" and "salvation" is NOT FAITH. It is because God made a Covenant with Abraham (v.72-73). And Israel can only serve God if they have Land surrounding Jerusalem to raise up tithes, bring the tithes to a House in which God lives, and feast and rejoice with God. And all this in peace and safety from surrounding enemies. This Messiah would put away sins because of MERCY. Now we jump to Romans. Romans builds a case that every man is dead in sins and in danger of judgment. In Chapter 6 the only way to overcome sin is to partake of Christ's death. But the Jew would say; "we have the Law"! So Paul shows that the Law, good, spiritual and God-given cannot help the Jew because of the "LAW of sin and death" dwelling IN THEM. Then, in Chapter 8, the way out of this is given. To receive Christ's Spirit and become children of God. But the reader of Romans Chapters 1-8 knows that Messiah would be rejected by Israel. This puts God in bad light. He has made promises to Israel, but because of their sins and their refusal to believe in Messiah, He must chastise them by keeping them dispersed among the nations. God's very honor is at stake because of HIS PROMISES to Abraham. What is the solution??? The answer is that Christ died not only for the sin (singular) of the Church, but the sin of "the whole world" (Jn.1:29). And, Christ died, not only for the sins (plural) of the Church, but the sins of "the whole world" (1st Jn.2:2). That gives God the JUDICIAL right to forgive any man's sin and sins. But God sets a CONDITION for putting away sins. That is; FAITH IN JESUS. And Israel will REFUSE FAITH IN JESUS. So what hope is there for Israel??? The answer is - THE COVENANT!!! Israel has a Covenant and the Nations do not. A member of the Nations MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS to have sins removed, but Israel can receive MERCY because of the Covenant with Abraham. But this MERCY does not include rebirth and eternal life. It includes what Zacharias prophesied AND what God promised Abraham - THAT GOD WOULD GIVE THEM A LAND AND BE WITH THEM! That is Israel's salvation! Paul dedicates THREE CHAPTERS (Romans 9 - 11) to show that God can and will honor His Covenant with Israel THOUGH THEY REMAIN IN UNBELIEF. He says; "I will have mercy on whom I will"! How??? BECAUSE JESUS FULFILLED THE JUDICIAL REQUIREMENT BY HIS DEATH FOR ALL SINS. Thus, we have (1) The Church who DID believe and are saved and given eternal life, (ii) Israel who did NOT believe and are restored to their Land in peace and God's blessing, and (iii) the Nations who did NOT believe and are in danger of the Lake of Fire. That is; THREE SEPARATE ENTITIES, EACH WITH A DIFFERENT FUTURE.