Openly Curious

God knows the outcome (the end result) of the children of obedience (the saved) and the children of disobedience (the unsaved, the lost). Destiny is where one ends up at at the end of their life. When a person(s) life here on earth is over and the spiritual state they were in at their death will determine their destiny. This is the same for both the believers and unbelievers in this world. Ecclessiastes 12:13 Trust and obey

But some things that are thought to be a "given" are not scriptural. I have a more sure word of prophecy I can go by that separates the false given lies from the divine truth found in the bible.

Prove it...

eeek...

You seem to be full of assumption toward me. You seem to think you know all about me but you don't. I did read the article on hermeneutic that was posted in the OP knowing full well it was an article. I don't have to give the author of an article credit openly if I don't want to do that. But I did ask the one who posted the article in the OP what was the reason why they posted it in the doctrinal forum section? Because there was no doctrine or scripture in the article in which to discuss. Hermeneutics is not a biblical teaching found in the bible so again what was the purpose of the one who posted the article in the doctrinal forum which is to discuss biblical doctrine, and only the one who started this thread can answer these questions. I recommend you take your own advice. Why should I get mad at what you think I don't know, you are being absurd and very judgmental towards me for no reason.

And just what are those attitudes of mine you are referring too.... especially in my first post in which you quoted. Do you disagree with the scripture I used in the post or something? For your personal knowledge I am very aware of what hermeneutics is all about and how it is suppose to work. Also I did and do know what it is the OP is talking about as I am not confused in the least. Hermeneutics is not a biblical doctrine taught in the word so I thought it strange it was posted in the doctrinal section forum for that reason. Are you accusing me of starting strife within this thread??? Or are you just trying to single me out for your own cause??? You don't know me and it is very obvious in the things you have said about me. However I do not believe interpreting the doctrines in the bible is a "science" nor is it an "art" that has slowly developed over the years. It is as Isaiah prophesied it would be in the last days. It takes the Holy Spirit our Teacher to lead and guide us into all truth. Hermeneutics without the Holy Spirit can lead to false interpretations. It isn't fullproof and those who use it can come to wrong conclusions and we must be careful what we hear and receive as 100% truth. I am also aware that hermeneutics itself comes from pagan origin and those theories of methodology have only been turned and applied to bible interpretation or biblical hermeneutics in our day. Some use the literal approach, some use the moral approach, some use the allegorical approach and some use the anagological approach as their method of interpreting the bible. And one wonders why so much false doctrines. Each method alone provides different interpretations so you tell me which one do you believe in as truth when every one is saying different things using what they call is proper hermeneutics.

Get away fast from this person as you are being controlled by him. Do you think that a real Christian would carry on the way that he is doing? His actions say different don't they? Jesus is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother as he will never leave nor forsake you, as you can trust in him with everything good or bad that goes on in your life. If you haven't given your heart to the Lord yet then you can do so right now right there where you are. If you are genuinely sorrowful for your past sins you have done. Then just accept Christ as your Savior into your heart receiving the sacrifice of his body, that he gave on the cross for the sins of the world. Believe he died was buried and arose again on the third day and you shall be saved. Begin walking in newness of life a fresh new start, by putting your old lifestyle and past behind you. Turning from your old life God will give new friends ones that are real Christians by example. Get you a bible and begin reading it.

I can only give echo to Omegaman's response. Also that we can trust in God the Judge of all things to Do the right thing.

I would say that your faith is wavering and perhaps it is about to be shipwrecked in this matter. You want to give up praying completely on one hand and on the other hand you don't want to give up and miss the answer/blessing you've been praying for. I can see the struggle you are having as you are being worn down in your faith to continue believing until God answers. One thing for sure doubt has no place with faith they are opposite of one another. Now faith is the "Substance" (the very "thing" we are believing about) of things hoped for the "EVIDENCE" (the physical proof) of things not seen. Not knowing what your personal prayer request is, I can't offer any advice or answers to you to whether or not your petition are in the will of God or if your prayer is amiss (out of the will of God). But I know that before our faith is manifested in the natural realm with the very evidence of what we were believing for it was already there for us in the spiritual realm. The hardest thing for us is the waiting in faith or in the anticipation of something we are believing for to come and we loose faith and give up. I would say that as long as you currently are not sure if what you are believing for is the will of God then you will continue to have doubt concerning your petition and be double-minded in your faith. You will continue to sway and swerve in your faith until you determine if what you are wanting is what God wants for you to have or not. Again not knowing the nature of your petition I can't offer any scriptural advice (God's Will) on it being God's will or not his will. You have to give yourself to heart search on the matter because as long as you do not know your prayer request is amiss out of God's will then your faith will not be strong. However knowing if your request is the will of God will increase your faith that much the more. So you need to find this out. I personally prayed myself for what God's wisdom was for four years straight before I got my answer and it was in Deuteronomy 4. Know what the will of the Lord is, and Don't give up.

Yes you are making sense. I also want to point out that the abuse you suffered personally at the hands of your father was none your fault at all. You were only a child at the time and you did not willingly of your choices participate in your father's sins. Instead you were forced into those terrible acts in which your father committed trespasses (sins) against you. You have nothing to feel guilty for or repent of in that realm of things. Although I know it is extremely hard to separate yourself from what your father was doing to you, because he made you a part of his sins and you where there in the midst of those terrible acts. But that does not mean you are guilty and bear any of the blame for what your father did to you personally. Things can get really confusing and it takes time and work so don't give up. I agree with the others that there is no purgatory (an in between place between heaven and hell). The bible does not teach that no where within it's pages but when a person dies their spirit either goes directly to heaven or to hell. There body however goes to sleep (or put to rest) in the grave to await the resurrection when our bodies will be united with our spirits again to where we will live forever in a body that will never die. This is the case for both the unbelievers as well as for the believers. There is no purgatory (in between place between heaven and hell). Wanting your father to find salvation after all he has done, that to me is the grace of God working in your heart. I imagine those feelings alone are confusing as they change being erradict from day to day. Seeing your father on one hand and then seeing the serial killer and child abuser on the other and I am sorry you are going through this confusion. The vilest persons of all in this world can be saved and go to heaven or they can reject God's plan of salvation for them and go to hell. It take a godly sorrow working in our hearts to bring us to true repentance. This is not like saying I'm sorry about something and getting up the next day and doing those wrong things you where sorry for all over again for that is not a godly sorrow. But having a godly sorrow comes from God to where you are so sorry or remorseful for what you did in the eyes of God you repent and then turn away from those previous sin and walk like an entirely different person than you had been in the past as past sins are washed away. Only God can know for sure if a person truly did repent. The only thing we have to go by is the fruit a person bares in their every day lives. If they are a Christian or not a believer as scripture tells us we shall know them by their fruit. I don't know if your father found forgiveness in the eyes of God or not, nor am I qualified to judge him either way as I am not around him. But if a person found forgiveness then you will see the new creature they have become as the old things are passed away and Behold all things are become new. I encourage you to study your bible and to dig deeper in it. Knowing scripture can give needed discernment in sorting through what is truth and what is a lie doing away with confusion...hugs

And I never said you did say hermeneutics was doctrine. Show me where I said it. And I never said you did say it was fool-proof. Show me where I said it. Well Jayne I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to do those things either.

I'm not perfect either LadyKay but I am still maturing.....

I have to respectfully disagree with you here that a "non-believer" could just out of the blue read the scriptural passage in Jeremiah 29:1-19 and be able to tell exactly what the passage means. Heck there are many Christians who couldn't tell you the meaning of the passage after they just read through it. Non-believers have little to none understanding of the history of God's people found in the scriptures and would be void of understanding. Even in the example you gave to show your point where it says "Jesus wept". A non-believer can read it and say it means that Jesus cried. But a born again Christian believer can read it and their meaning would be must deeper than Jesus just cried some tears. But they would say Jesus just didn't cry but he "wept" he sobbed. You just gave even a non-believer the right to say the "Bible says" as long as they have the right tools to discern that. Even the false prophets and teachers as long as they use proper hermeneutics they can proclaim truth. Heretics could do the same under your examples and proclaim truth. I do not believe that to be true. I am not against study tools and study aids but they are not above scriptural truths and biblical doctrines taught in the word of God. Using proper hermeneutics is not a guarantee nor does it trump having a biblical knowledge of the bible from Genesis to Revelation and the history found within it, hermeneutics can't always do that and could lead a person into error as a result of using it as well. I just do not put a 100% certainty in those who say they use hermeneutics as always having proper doctrine. I don't see it as a full proof tool as some seem to think it is and elevate it above the Spirit of God and I want do that because we are human and not above error.

Hermeneutics is not a biblical doctrine. There is no biblical scripture in the OP in which to have a Biblical Doctrine discussion on in this forum. One has to study, read and meditate upon the scriptures to show themselves approved unto God a workman that needeth not be ashamed. This is what they did before hermeneutics was ever invented. That I'm sure was the hope of the one who invented the tool but unfortunately proper understanding and doctrine isn't always the result. And one can never dismiss our Teacher the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth. Scripture is Spirit and must be Spiritually discerned. A person having not the Spirit can use all kinds of tools and study aids and will be void of spiritual truths as they do not have the Spirit of God. They interpret the bible with the natural mind which is at enmity (enemy) with God. Again there is no biblical doctrine in the OP in which to have a discussion on.

Thank you for a response

What does this have to do with the "Biblical Doctrine" forum? I ask because there is no biblical doctrine introduced in which to discuss. Hermanuetics is not a biblical or scriptural doctrine found in the bible to preach or teach. Isaiah 28:9-11-Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine; them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Christ and him crucified to save the lost (1 Corinthians 1:18-31 & 2:6-16). Preaching or prophesying in your own tongue (language) for edification and understanding while under the anointing and power of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 14:19-25). The Word of God and the truth has to be "rightly divided" therefore one has to study it to show themselves approved (2 Timothy 2:15).

Hi InChrist, Can you tell me... What is the Perfect "Law" of liberty? and... How does one fulfill it?

What is important is that we walk according to the new creature (new man) that was created through Christ Jesus. In other words we walk in the Spirit as the children of obedience and not walk in the sins of the flesh that we once did as the children of disobedience. If any man be in Christ he is a new creature and Behold old things have passed away and Behold all things are made new. Christ sacrifice on the cross reconciled our broken relationship with God the Father which was broken because of sin entering into the world not because of the Old covenant law of Moses. If there was a law that God could have given that could have wash away our sins once and for all, and restored mankind's relationship unto himself once and for all, or if the blood shedding of all the bulls and goats that had to be continually sacrificed that could never take the guilt of sin away and cleanse our conscious to serve the living God then it would have been given. But there was no law that was or could be given that mankind to keep and practice that could take away the guilt of our sins. The Old Covenant law of Moses was only temporary giving us knowledge of what sin was or what was right and wrong until Christ came who was that one perfect spotless lamb without blemish whose blood was shed for the remission of sins. The Old Covenant law of Moses was imperfect and was only temporary until Christ came and established a New and better covenant based on better promises that the old. Christ only had to die once and for all and sprinkled his own blood on the mercy seat. Christ unlike the OT system and the animal sacrifices and such only had to die once and for all. Keeping and practicing all the OT laws cannot make one righteous inwardly nor take away the guilt of their sins. Only Christ and Christ work on the cross can do that as we are saved through faith (the faith of Abraham) by grace and not by works lest any man should boast. A greater understanding of the covenant that God made with Abraham which was made before the law of Moses was ever given. The covenant God made with Abraham was not disannuled or done away with because of the law of Moses. The covenant with Abraham was by promise and he believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness speaking of the promise seed of Abraham being Christ Jesus. The law of Moses didn't disannul the promised seed that would come through Abraham's lineage. But a greater understanding of the covenant of Abraham will bring a better understanding and knowledge concerning the law of Moses and the New Covenant based on better promises as all the promises of God are yes and amen.

I agree with that Ezra

Can a born-again Christian be a democrat? It is more like Can they be? Or Should they be? As individuals in the USA we each have the right to vote Republican, Democrat or other party of our choice. It does not matter if we are or are not a born again Christian for it is simply our right to choose who we vote for. There are many things I personally cannot agree with being a Christian in the democratic party to where I can't vote democratic.

For me the conviction would carry over in such a scenario. If the franchise of Longhorns made me sell liquor or I couldn't be part of the franchise then I would say good riddance. Even though a restaurant has more control over the amount of alcohol sold to individuals I still wouldn't know how the alcohol effects each individual person. If a person has a conscious over something then they can't go against their conscious to do so would be sinning to the individual person. When it comes to matters of personal conscious, there are quote No - "where does one draw the line". Selling alcohol is no different as having a conscious to worship God on a Saturday or Sunday or abstaining from eating certain meats and the such like things. I personally do not have to give account for another persons conscious but I do have to answer for my own conscious toward others and toward God. To defile one's own conscious by going against the conviction of their own heart is to sin in God's eyes. Curious are you considering purchasing a liquor store or a restaurant that sells alcohol?

As a Christian I can only speak for myself as I could but would not own a liquor store. My conscious would not allow me to do so as I know the damage alcohol can and does do to others and I want contribute to the harm of others by something I choose to sell. I wouldn't know from bottle to bottle if a person would be responsible, if a person would drive drunk and kill themselves or kill others driving drunk, if a person would knife another etc., I just don't want something as selling liquor to be on my conscious if others are hurt or harmed in any way and I already know they will be. Selling liquor wouldn't justify taking the profits from the sell of liquor to spread the gospel. The gospel is suppose to be the good news of salvation. Where is the good news to all those who will be hurt from not drinking responsible should they choose to drive drunk and people are killed as a result of me selling them liquor? As a Christian we are suppose to shun even the appearance of evil. Selling liquor would cause people to question my sincerity with God and my testimony would be tainted which I don't want as I want others to see Christ in me a living espistle. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ" I personally don't want others to follow me into a liquor store I owned. Just couldn't do it.

As a Christian I can only speak for myself as I could but would not own a liquor store. My conscious would not allow me to do so as I know the damage alcohol can and does do to others and I want contribute to the harm of others by something I choose to sell. I wouldn't know from bottle to bottle if a person would be responsible, if a person would drive drunk and kill themselves or kill others driving drunk, if a person would knife another etc., I just don't want something as selling liquor to be on my conscious if others are hurt or harmed in any way and I already know they will be. Selling liquor wouldn't justify taking the profits from the sell of liquor to spread the gospel. The gospel is suppose to be the good news of salvation. Where is the good news to all those who will be hurt from not drinking responsible should they choose to drive drunk and people are killed as a result of me selling them liquor? As a Christian we are suppose to shun even the appearance of evil. Selling liquor would cause people to question my sincerity with God and my testimony would be tainted which I don't want as I want others to see Christ in me a living espistle. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ" I personally don't want others to follow me into a liquor store I owned. Just couldn't do it.

Baptism is an outward sign of what took place on the inside of our heart the moment we accepted Christ as our Savior as our sins were washed away. Being baptized is an outward testimony of an inner work that took place in your life. Baptism is nothing to be ashamed of or be afraid of it is only following in the footsteps of Jesus as his disciple. Of course those who do not follow in Christ's footsteps will not experience the blessings that come from obedience to being baptized.

Recently I learned while speaking to a LDS believer that they believe in the willful worship of angels. I do consider the LDS to be a cult as they deviate from the GodHead. But I have love for them and am not hostile and will try to minister to their needs and confusion if at all possible.