The Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Book of Revelation

[Massorite]

You keep calling these events

The changing of the living into immortal bodies at the resurrection of the righteous is what is known as the rapture and it is going to happen just as 1st Corinthians 15 and 1st Thessalonians says it will. These two event (the resurrection and rapture of the just) do occur at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ not before the tribulation.

a rapture and Christ never teaches this, infact He teaches the oppsite!

Please show us where Christ teaches a rapture?

The word "rapture" comes from a Latin word in the Vulgate bible meaning "to be caught up or snatched away" and needless to say the words "rapture" and "Resurrection are talking about the same event. So in what scripture does Jesus controdict the concept og the body changing from a mortal body to an immortal body during the "rapture/resurrection" process?

[hayahtowb]

Hi Massorite,

The word "rapture" comes from a Latin word in the Vulgate bible meaning "to be caught up or snatched away" and needless to say the words "rapture" and "Resurrection are talking about the same event. So in what scripture does Jesus controdict the concept og the body changing from a mortal body to an immortal body during the "rapture/resurrection" process?

the contradiction isn't a process, but a damnable heresy and an out-n-out lie!

Rapture believers think and teach that it is only the people that will be 'caught away' when Christ returns, whereas all things; even time, will change at the Secound Advent of Christ.

[OneLight]

Hi Massorite,

The word "rapture" comes from a Latin word in the Vulgate bible meaning "to be caught up or snatched away" and needless to say the words "rapture" and "Resurrection are talking about the same event. So in what scripture does Jesus controdict the concept og the body changing from a mortal body to an immortal body during the "rapture/resurrection" process?

the contradiction isn't a process, but a damnable heresy and an out-n-out lie!

Rapture believers think and teach that it is only the people that will be 'caught away' when Christ returns, whereas all things; even time, will change at the Secound Advent of Christ.

Not so. Scripture tells us that He will return with a shout and a trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remains will be caught up to Him,. Those who are in Christ. Then, He will bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years as He rules on earth. After 1000 years, Satan will be released for a "season" where he will gather another army and try to destroy all of Christs believers and works. That is when He will finally throw Satan and his "officials" into the lake of Fire and Brim Stone, have the Great White Throne Judgment, destroy the heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, one that will be pure enough for the New Jerusalem will come to. We will then be with Him forever.

[Murse32]

What tickles me is how so many are so sure there is NOT a pre-trib rapture that you are willing to call it "heresy". Though you don't keep in mind all of the scriptures while quoting this. IF you would have kept in mind all the scriptures, it would bring a thought as if a post-trib summoning was in fact the ONLY way...there would be nobody left on earth. Let's think. We all go through the tribulation...at the end, Jesus comes like a "thief in the night", we are all called up, He destroys the rest of the world, comes back...starts His reign.

Ok, Well, In Revelation 20 we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years. At the end of that, he is released for a short time to make war and deceive....Well, who is he deceiving?!?!? Everyone on earth according to post-trib rapture people have already been made incorruptible. So, satan is wandering around asking people that could NEVER be corrupted to join his side??? doesn't make sense.

In Ezekiel, we see the destruction of Gog. This event has not happened yet. This is the prophetic event that will happen at the end of the millenium. Who's bones and weapons are being burned? We are all incorruptible once again. Are we to believe that we will die again at the hand of satan?

In matthew 24, we see Jesus warning those that are in Judea to flee. What, the rest of the world, even us here in America shouldn't worry?!?!? Not going to affect us? Funny, the bible calls the tribulation a testing of the world

And, why is it we see that there will be no more death in Revelation 21? We should see this right after the tribulation considering everyone of Jesus believers are taken up and the rest are judged. Which brings me to another point, why does He wait 1000 years to Judge all? seems He could do it right there since everyone really has been judged.

Furthermore, I think it's important to consider why Jesus calls His church His "bride". In knowing the history of Jewish customs, would shed much light on the ceremony that takes place.

With all that said, taking scripture as a WHOLE, shows that there can be a pre-trib rapture of the church. The tribulation is a testing period for the world, but mostly the Jews. This is their last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy. It was put on hold for the purpose of the Church. Once this last week starts, the church age is over.

Many focus so hard that a "rapture" will be simply a taking away of all believers alive at that time. Like we will just vanish into thin air. Now, this is a possibility, but has the thought ever occured that we may just be taken...to the people left it will look like a mass death. Our bodies still here, spirit and soul with Him. waiting for the time that our bodies will be resurrected? It's just a thought.

Let's play make believe. All christians alive appear to have died. A leader arises with an answer. Maybe this answer will be a comforting one to the people. maybe it will be more along the lines that we have worshipped a false god and the real god has punished us....this would make a perfect paved way for the people living to worship something false.

Who knows. All I do know, is that it is very gray on how it will happen. I think people should be cautious to call something unknown which is based on the bible as a "damnable heresy". Remember Jesus' words.

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We know that He isn't talking about day to day trials and tribulations...we are to rejoice in those times. This time to come, is not a time for rejoicing.

[Massorite]

Hi Massorite,

The word "rapture" comes from a Latin word in the Vulgate bible meaning "to be caught up or snatched away" and needless to say the words "rapture" and "Resurrection are talking about the same event. So in what scripture does Jesus controdict the concept og the body changing from a mortal body to an immortal body during the "rapture/resurrection" process?

the contradiction isn't a process, but a damnable heresy and an out-n-out lie!

Rapture believers think and teach that it is only the people that will be 'caught away' when Christ returns, whereas all things; even time, will change at the Secound Advent of Christ.

Not so. Scripture tells us that He will return with a shout and a trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remains will be caught up to Him,. Those who are in Christ. Then, He will bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years as He rules on earth. After 1000 years, Satan will be released for a "season" where he will gather another army and try to destroy all of Christs believers and works. That is when He will finally throw Satan and his "officials" into the lake of Fire and Brim Stone, have the Great White Throne Judgment, destroy the heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, one that will be pure enough for the New Jerusalem will come to. We will then be with Him forever.

So hayahtowb what about those who will still be human and living just as we are today after the battle of Armigeddon who will still be in the living even when Jesus starts His 1000 reign? Will all things including time change for them also and if it does how? What wiil their position be in the future or how will they fit into the world?

[Massorite]

What tickles me is how so many are so sure there is NOT a pre-trib rapture that you are willing to call it "heresy". Though you don't keep in mind all of the scriptures while quoting this. IF you would have kept in mind all the scriptures, it would bring a thought as if a post-trib summoning was in fact the ONLY way...there would be nobody left on earth. Let's think. We all go through the tribulation...at the end, Jesus comes like a "thief in the night", we are all called up, He destroys the rest of the world, comes back...starts His reign.

Ok, Well, In Revelation 20 we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years. At the end of that, he is released for a short time to make war and deceive....Well, who is he deceiving?!?!? Everyone on earth according to post-trib rapture people have already been made incorruptible. So, satan is wandering around asking people that could NEVER be corrupted to join his side??? doesn't make sense.

In Ezekiel, we see the destruction of Gog. This event has not happened yet. This is the prophetic event that will happen at the end of the millenium. Who's bones and weapons are being burned? We are all incorruptible once again. Are we to believe that we will die again at the hand of satan?

In Matthew 24, we see Jesus warning those that are in Judea to flee. What, the rest of the world, even us here in America shouldn't worry?!?!? Not going to affect us? Funny, the bible calls the tribulation a testing of the world

And, why is it we see that there will be no more death in Revelation 21? We should see this right after the tribulation considering everyone of Jesus believers are taken up and the rest are judged. Which brings me to another point, why does He wait 1000 years to Judge all? seems He could do it right there since everyone really has been judged.

Furthermore, I think it's important to consider why Jesus calls His church His "bride". In knowing the history of Jewish customs, would shed much light on the ceremony that takes place.

With all that said, taking scripture as a WHOLE, shows that there can be a pre-trib rapture of the church. The tribulation is a testing period for the world, but mostly the Jews. This is their last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy. It was put on hold for the purpose of the Church. Once this last week starts, the church age is over.

Many focus so hard that a "rapture" will be simply a taking away of all believers alive at that time. Like we will just vanish into thin air. Now, this is a possibility, but has the thought ever occurred that we may just be taken...to the people left it will look like a mass death. Our bodies still here, spirit and soul with Him. waiting for the time that our bodies will be resurrected? It's just a thought.

Let's play make believe. All Christians alive appear to have died. A leader arises with an answer. Maybe this answer will be a comforting one to the people. maybe it will be more along the lines that we have worshiped a false god and the real god has punished us....this would make a perfect paved way for the people living to worship something false.

Who knows. All I do know, is that it is very gray on how it will happen. I think people should be cautious to call something unknown which is based on the bible as a "damnable heresy". Remember Jesus' words.

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We know that He isn't talking about day to day trials and tribulations...we are to rejoice in those times. This time to come, is not a time for rejoicing.

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation". There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel.

The pre-trib doctrine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal.

The botton line is that the pre-tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottom doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist.

As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay.

[Murse32]

What tickles me is how so many are so sure there is NOT a pre-trib rapture that you are willing to call it "heresy". Though you don't keep in mind all of the scriptures while quoting this. IF you would have kept in mind all the scriptures, it would bring a thought as if a post-trib summoning was in fact the ONLY way...there would be nobody left on earth. Let's think. We all go through the tribulation...at the end, Jesus comes like a "thief in the night", we are all called up, He destroys the rest of the world, comes back...starts His reign.

Ok, Well, In Revelation 20 we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years. At the end of that, he is released for a short time to make war and deceive....Well, who is he deceiving?!?!? Everyone on earth according to post-trib rapture people have already been made incorruptible. So, satan is wandering around asking people that could NEVER be corrupted to join his side??? doesn't make sense.

In Ezekiel, we see the destruction of Gog. This event has not happened yet. This is the prophetic event that will happen at the end of the millenium. Who's bones and weapons are being burned? We are all incorruptible once again. Are we to believe that we will die again at the hand of satan?

In Matthew 24, we see Jesus warning those that are in Judea to flee. What, the rest of the world, even us here in America shouldn't worry?!?!? Not going to affect us? Funny, the bible calls the tribulation a testing of the world

And, why is it we see that there will be no more death in Revelation 21? We should see this right after the tribulation considering everyone of Jesus believers are taken up and the rest are judged. Which brings me to another point, why does He wait 1000 years to Judge all? seems He could do it right there since everyone really has been judged.

Furthermore, I think it's important to consider why Jesus calls His church His "bride". In knowing the history of Jewish customs, would shed much light on the ceremony that takes place.

With all that said, taking scripture as a WHOLE, shows that there can be a pre-trib rapture of the church. The tribulation is a testing period for the world, but mostly the Jews. This is their last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy. It was put on hold for the purpose of the Church. Once this last week starts, the church age is over.

Many focus so hard that a "rapture" will be simply a taking away of all believers alive at that time. Like we will just vanish into thin air. Now, this is a possibility, but has the thought ever occurred that we may just be taken...to the people left it will look like a mass death. Our bodies still here, spirit and soul with Him. waiting for the time that our bodies will be resurrected? It's just a thought.

Let's play make believe. All Christians alive appear to have died. A leader arises with an answer. Maybe this answer will be a comforting one to the people. maybe it will be more along the lines that we have worshiped a false god and the real god has punished us....this would make a perfect paved way for the people living to worship something false.

Who knows. All I do know, is that it is very gray on how it will happen. I think people should be cautious to call something unknown which is based on the bible as a "damnable heresy". Remember Jesus' words.

Revelation 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We know that He isn't talking about day to day trials and tribulations...we are to rejoice in those times. This time to come, is not a time for rejoicing.

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew.

What's gray is your interpretation. You say Jesus will be picking "us" up. The bible declares He will gather His elect. The elect, have always been the Jews. These are the same Jews that are sealed Mid way through Revelation.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation".

There is no proof on a post-trib either. Funny thing is, is we are not to know the day nor the hour...the timing will be unknown. Yet through proper study, we could easily see the timing of a second coming...just wait for the war in the valley of Meggido. Another consideration is that if you follow the time line of daniels 70-week prophecy, 69 have been fulfilled. according to historians, the 69 weeks representing 483 years, falls in place perfectly to the coming of the Messiah. To the day. That would mean the last "week" would be 7 years. and according to revelation, we see the two witnesses who torment the anti-christ for 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) in the midst of the trib (half way) He gets wounded and rises again. This means there will be yet another 3 1/2 years.

There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel.

You are right, there is no proof. I do believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit though...not the church. Shoot, we haven't been able to hold back satan for 2,000 years now. Jesus is the light of this world, the Holy Spirit gives Him that testimony...darkness can't mingle with the light. Once the light is taken away, darkness has free reign.

The pre-trib doctrine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal.

I've actually never heard of this. The 144,000 are the Jews that God promised to save in order for the house of Israel (Jacob) to be saved and inherit the land of Israel forever. this is God keeping His promise to the Jews. But, like in the old testament, the Jews were punished for their non-belief. They worshipped other gods and would not keep the one True Gods commandments...so He allowed them to be taken captive and punished. This last week is His last call for the Jews to repent and come back to Him. When the antichrist sits in the future temple...They will know it's an abomination. They will refer back to daniel and know they have followed a false messiah.

The botton line is that the pre-tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottom doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist.

With your logic than, you should forget about your post-trib theory as well...it falls under the same basis.

As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay.

Jewish custom dictates once the groom comes to get his bride, He takes her back to His fathers house for "7 days"

Edited April 29, 2009 by Murse32

[georgedrw81]

Not so. Scripture tells us that He will return with a shout and a trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remains will be caught up to Him,. Those who are in Christ. Then, He will bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years as He rules on earth. After 1000 years, Satan will be released for a "season" where he will gather another army and try to destroy all of Christs believers and works. That is when He will finally throw Satan and his "officials" into the lake of Fire and Brim Stone, have the Great White Throne Judgment, destroy the heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, one that will be pure enough for the New Jerusalem will come to. We will then be with Him forever.

[pokemaughan]

Not so. Scripture tells us that He will return with a shout and a trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remains will be caught up to Him,. Those who are in Christ. Then, He will bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years as He rules on earth. After 1000 years, Satan will be released for a "season" where he will gather another army and try to destroy all of Christs believers and works. That is when He will finally throw Satan and his "officials" into the lake of Fire and Brim Stone, have the Great White Throne Judgment, destroy the heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, one that will be pure enough for the New Jerusalem will come to. We will then be with Him forever.

Exactly

[Murse32]

Easily done. Every single time the term elect is used in the N.T. it is referring to the Church. The real question is why would anyone think otherwise.

Why? Because this is the same question which brought about the "replacement theory". To say God has forgotten about His promise to Israel is simply mind boggling. To proclaim that the New Testament now speaks in nothing but a symbolic language is also a discrepancy in good theology. God did not forget about His chosen people (His Elect). If He decided to replace His promise to the "church" our scriptures would not make sense. The book of Revelation is surrounded around the issues of what's going to happen in Israel. How the two witnesses preach there, the new temple is built there, the battle of Armageddon is going to be brought together there. As stated before, we also see that 144,000 are sealed, all of them being Jewish. It would be difficult to see how God would keep His promise to the house of Israel. But, because He seals and keeps 12,000 from each tribe, this shows the promise is in full swing. Keep in mind as well, any good historian will tell you that no one in history has ever lost their land for such a great amount of time and gotten it back. In 1946, we see the Jews returning home. What's even more fantastic, is that for centuries, the jews spoke whatever language was used in the area that they lived. Hebrew had become dead. This to, is a phenomenon in itself...no culture has ever lost it's language and returned to it. Yet, many are studying and speaking hebrew to this day. It was God's promise that He would restore their land to them and also the pure language. God has not forgotten about His promise...nor will he ever replace those that He loved...We, as the church, should not be so egotistic. We are only adobted in to His family by His wonderful grace and lovingkindness. He put His promise on hold so that we too could be saved and be with Him...but, the rest of the promise for Israel is yet to come.