Is OSAS true

[OneLight]

It does all come down to these scriptures, doesn't it?

Matthew 22:36-40 (New King James Version)

[Ovedya]

ok now i'm a little confused as to the difference between es and osas. do they not both mean that once you have become a child of God you remain a child of God?

Yes, but the problem is that one of them is not a doctrine. OSAS is a made up doctrine by those who oppose Eternal Security. It is moniker they made up based upon their lack of understanding of Eternal Security. Those of us who believe in Eternal Security do not teach, as we are accused of, that you can simply go out and sin as much as you want and its all okay 'cause your saved.

People like Ezekiel33 are dishonest about what we teach. He assigns values to our beliefs so that he has something to shoot down.

The problem with your argument, is that most people that believe in ''Eternal Security'' call it OSAS and assign the same values to it that you falsely claim I have just pulled from nowhere simply to shoot down.

Actually, that's not true of "most people" at all.

The term "Once Saved, Always Saved," was coined by person's opposed to the concept of Eternal Security. It's a term used to quantify, to simplify the concept of Eternal Security, just as "TULIP" was an acronym used to simplify Calvin's position. Prior to the Arminian controversy "TULIP" didn't exist. When arguing Eternal Security (aka "Perseverance of the Saints") the other aspects of Calvinism usually enter in, in one form or another. Simply taking Eternal Security, isolating it, and simplifying it into something unrecognizable to the concept of Calvinism, really amounts to the creation of a straw man.

[Massorite]

It does all come down to these scriptures, doesn't it?

Matthew 22:36-40 (New King James Version)

[JCISGD]

Hi its interesting to me that the sermon preached in our fellowship this sunday, was on exactly this topic. It was taken from the complete book of Ephesians, and that it is divided equally into two halves. The first 3 chpts Paul speaks of Gods will and goodness and the last 3 Paul speaks of our response.

For my part i see that The perseverance of the saints, is correct doctrine and suppported whole heartedly by scripture and life. Yet it is God who forknew all things and is not bound in time that sees who will perservere.

Now we all must know that a free will can reject salvation after it has been accepted, but truly no one will be lost who does not deliberatley jump out of the boat.

I suppose the difficulty is have we jumped ship if we sin? I dont think so, as we are everwhere offered pardon if we confess and forsake, however this is not the same as turning the heart deliberatley away and refusing to come back.

So while Ephesians supports both moderate Calvinism and Armeinism I would urge Calvinist to beware of Fatalism which is denounsed in the OT as a false god, and for Armeinist to beware of rocking the boat so much as to cause some to fall out. Yes be sure to warn of the consequences of sin, and the eternal consequence of a hardened heart. "He who is reproved often,and hardens his heart will be removed and that without remedy". Proverbs ?

Blessings Arthur.

[JCISGD]

Thanks Ezk33 for your warm welcome and encouragement. I have been greatly influenced by the writings of Charles Finney,and pre that i loved Jesus but was a new babe and quite liberal. Finney`s stuff was good food for me but i nearly turned it into death by trying to overcome sin without the help of Holy Spirit.

Even though i coould see clearly he stressed he was NOT saying TRY HARDER religion, that of the Jews, I did try harder and became very miserable even fearing my salvation because of my inability to keep my wicked heart from rising back up.

It was only when i saw that Jesus not only justified me on the cross He also wants to santify (give me a new heart) on the cross. Crucifying the old man and raising me into new life, that i have been able to rest back in His hands and bossum. Oh happy day when i saw that not only could i not overcome sin (keep Gods law) by myself, but that i was never meant to, halleluja.It is Jesus living in me who will do it, so that it is no longer i that lives but Christ Jesus.

I have not obtained this yet, but i know its coming. Holy Spirit tells me so.

Now i want to ask those who need to defend faith without works, i.e calvinist, are you being poked by Holy Spirit because sin is your master? and i would ask the armeinist, are you poking the body because you are struggling also and hope to overcome by raising the standard so to speak, i.e if only we all get spiritual i might find freedom from my besetting sins?.

I was not only miserable before, but i seem to make all others around me miserable.If anyone struggles in the quicksand of sin, they will find it helpless, but if they stop and cry out to Him who is able to do exceedingly above all that we can imagine or hope for, they will be plucked from the miry clay and recieve clean clothes and refreshments.

[Guest shiloh357]

I will take this as a yes, you will keep denying God's word is truth.

For the 15th or 16th time.

You are not God, I am denying your mistaken view of God's word.

God's word is the truth, your view of it is not.

I am not God this is correct, but you do not reject me, you reject God's word.

But you are claiming that if we don't accept your claims to be true, we are rejecting God's word, so you are setting yourself up as infallible, when it is purely a case of arrogance on your part. Instead of actually engaging the issue in an adult, mature manner, you simply dismiss any disagreement with your handling of Scripture as "rejecting the God's Word.

Your view is just that... It is a view. Your view is not "God's Word" and to say otherwise, shows that you really don't have anything meaningful or intelligent to offer the debate. All you can offer is pride and arrogant dismissives that is nothing but a liability to any intelligent discussion of the issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

Two opposite belief cannot both be true. The Bible only supports one of these two views. Unfortunately for you the Bible declares that you can turn from God after salvation therefore proving Eternal Security false.

No, your interpretation of a couple of verses declares that you can turn from God after salvation.

once again, this is not the same as the Bible declaring it.

They openly say you can, how can you claim it is just may interpretation?

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.

There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.

Romans 11:16-24

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.

20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.

23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?

Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.

Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.

The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.

''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.

22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.

23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;

Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.

This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.

A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.

Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22

2nd Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.

Let's look at these verses one at a time.

Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?

Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.

I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48

Luke 12:47-48

47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.

Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.

When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.

There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.

How can you deny God's truth as simply my ''interpretation''

And if that is not enough?

These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.

Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5

Revelation 2:1-5

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;

2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.

Revelation 3:1-5

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

Let look at this passage one verse at a time,

Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.

This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.

Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.

I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.

Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-4

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.

Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.

Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.

Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.

Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.

Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.

Will you still deny God's truth? Why would Jesus tell them to repent if they were ''Eternally Secure''?

Those passages are not dealing with salvation or how a person gets saved. You are trying to filter them through an issue they were not designed to address. They don't teach losing salvation, because they are not addressing salvation in the first place.

Repentance is something Christians are commanded to do all of the time. Repentance is not a one time thing only for sinners. We need to repent of sin everyday. A command to repent is not a command to be saved.

[givennewname]

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 2:5 says He will remove their candle stick if they do not repent, Revelation 2:16 says He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth if they do not repent, and Revelation 3:5 so only the ones who overcome will not be erased from the book of life, and Shiloh claims this is not about loosing or gaining salvation. this is a perfect example of the thread I started about so called christians denying God's word because it doesn't fit their doctrine.

tell us what are the first works?

what does it mean to have your lampstand removed?

What is the "sword of his mouth"?

Repent;

That action does not mean a person has lost his salvation.. It means like David when he sins with Batheseeba, he turns from doing God's commands and he realises his mistake and repents to be back into fellowship with God.

your lampstand

the scriptures did not say yr lamp stand.. It says their candlestick.. it refers to the church as explained in the begining of Revelation or their good witness as in the book of Matthew wehere the Gospel ask us to let our light shine as awitness to the Good news.

[Guest shiloh357]

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 2:5 says He will remove their candle stick if they do not repent, Revelation 2:16 says He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth if they do not repent, and Revelation 3:5 so only the ones who overcome will not be erased from the book of life, and Shiloh claims this is not about loosing or gaining salvation. this is a perfect example of the thread I started about so called christians denying God's word because it doesn't fit their doctrine.

No, what I am rejecting is your sloppy, bargain basement handling of Scripture. You don't know how to apply proper hermenuetics to passages.

Removing a candlestick does not mean taking away salvation. You are filling those passages with the meaning YOU want them to posssess.

When it says "he overcomes I will not blot his name from the book of life, that is actually talking about eternal security. The Bible says in 1Jn 5:4. that He that is born of God overcomes the world. That is the biblical method of overcoming.

Jesus is saying he who is born of God will not have his name blotted from the book of life. There is not one case where the Bible refers to anyone born of God as no longer born of God.

[larryt]

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse is always brought up to say that someone can have their name blotted out. It is not that at all. It says I will not blot out....

Who is this speaking to - those that overcome, the overcomers, believers. And it is in actuality an encouragement and not a warning. It is telling them that they can be assured that they will not be blotted out of the book of life.

I can tell someone that their names will not be erased and still have no intention of ever erasing anyone's names.

In logic a statement does not necessarily imply the converse to be true. That is what is happening here. Because the Lord says that He won't blot the names out does not imply that He will blot any names out. Don't read more into what is said than what is said.

LT